MINUTES of the

              CLEWX SKYWARN  STEERING  COMMITTEE  MEETING

                             July 14, 1990


The meeting was called to order by Chairman Dave Prestel, W8AJR, at
10:05 am.  Those in attendance were:
     Marvin Miller, NWS            Dick Bomboy, WA3USH
     Rick Silverio, WB3JDI         Jack Davis, N8DAI
     Scott Yonally, KC8SS          Bill Parks, K8JZN
     Bill Hess, K8SGX              Chris Mize, WD8OCS
     Marv Grossman, W8AZO          Tex Crider, N8FPH
     George Henzler, WB8HHZ        Dave Prestel, W8AJR
     Dave Kersten, N8AUH           Bill Craig, Dir. EMA Trumbull Co.

W8AJR said all areas represented by this Steering Committee have
successfully tied in with Cleveland NWS (CleNWS), since our last
meeting (4/21/90), except Northwest Ohio.

Brief reports were solicited from each:
   + KC8SS said Mansfield doing fine in-so-far as reaching CleNWS via
     2M.  They've been busy with severe weather, receiving more than
     their share so far in 1990.
   + N8DAI said Trumbull County doing okay, at this time.
   + WB3JDI reported Pennsylvania making CleNWS okay via 2M and Packet
     on .05 Rick said they have the weather available on phone BBS, and
     they pick up reports there, and enter them on the Packet system,
     which is reported to be very good thru Western Pennsylvania.
   + WB3USH said Erie radar was giving them problems in early July with
     reports of storm severity that were not consistent with CleNWS,
     Erie showing greater intensities than CleNWS.  The problem was
     dumped onto the Amateur community, but is the NWS's to resolve.
     Dick will be meeting with Marvin after this meeting to further
     discuss.
   + WD8OCS said they have been having some trouble getting traffic
     into & from CleNWS, probably because of new operators at CleNWS.
     This situation will resolve itself with experience on the part of
     the hams at CleNWS.
   + WB8HHZ said Toledo has successfully relayed information to & from
     CleNWS via WD8CHL, Jim in Berlin Heights, thru the 147.15
     repeater.
   + N8FPH said Toledo area Skywarn (WD8C and N8FPH) can be reached at
     W8HHF Packet, and that the NWS at Toledo Airport is on Packet at
     W8MTU-1.

Marvin Miller reported there has been 180 Events (Tornado & Severe
Thunderstorms) statewide this year.  He is pleased to see the
group working on the new communications network to have it in
place and functioning well ahead of NEXRAD.  Marvin explained
radar looks at the size of the raindrops in a storm - the larger
the drop, the heavier the rainfall.  At least four different radar
sites watching the night of the Shadyside flooding did not
indicate the type of rainfall that was actually occurring:
Tropical, small droplet size but very great density.  Several of
these stations had "10 centimeter" radar, the most sensitive for
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July 14, 1990   p. 2

this type of surveillance, but none reported the severe rainfall that
resulted.  Marvin pointed out Doppler is also the 10cm type radar, so
he doubts it would have done any better at alerting NWS personnel to
the hazard.  He went on to point out NWS needs well trained spotters to
advise them of the actual conditions seen and help avoid this type of
anomaly.
   KC8SS asked about obtaining more advanced Tornado WARNINGS, and
Marvin explained, by definition, a warning isn't issued until
there has been an actual sighting of a funnel.
   N8FPH asked about the reliability and capability of Doppler radar
as it looks as if Toledo will not be gaining anything with this
transition, may in fact lose the advantages they now have.  Marvin
said the optimum range of Doppler is about 80 miles.  It can see
further and interpret what it sees.  In updrafts (etc.) it creates
a VIL number (Vertically Integrated Liquid) which indicates how
severe the weather in that storm cell may be:  The higher the VIL
number, the worse the storm.  The VIL number at distance shows up
some 10 minutes before the event manifests itself on the ground.
Toledo will be on the fringes of several Doppler radar sites;
Pontiac, Mich.; Peru, Ind.; and Cleveland, Ohio.
Marvin again emphasized the need for SKYWARN reporters will NOT
diminish with Doppler, but will likely become more of a necessity
as NWS local manning is reduced (including radar sites).

W8AZO brought forth some comments on the Shadyside flooding and the
communications problems there.  Throughout that area, most
everything is built in the valleys (gullies).  When heavy rains
come, they wash down the slopes of the hills and fill the gullies.
Typically, there is a main road in the gully, with homes built on
both sides of the road, and bridges crossing the gully.  The rain
came down with such intensity that it washed all kinds of debris
(small sheds, automobiles, busses, etc.) into the gully streams,
and these built up at the bridges, which gave way after the
pressure on them became too great, which then unleashed the lakes
that had built up behind them to wash away everything below.  The
resultant flood washed away utility poles (telephone, power, etc)
and there was no way to communicate with the area.  The National
Guard was activated (112th Engineers Group from Cleveland area)
and they did not have adequate communications for the type of
terrain.  Finally, cellular telephone, working through a system
across the river provided the first reliable communications.  That
Amateur radio wasn't called upon was apparently an oversight or
miscommunication on the part of someone.

W8AJR spoke about the 6-Meter backbone system, proposed for the upper
echelon of the SKYWARN network, explaining that the main transmitter is
in Novelty, Ohio, with remote inputs at:  Mansfield, Wooster, Thompson,
Amherst & Geauga County, with additional sites under consideration.
There is also access to the Michigan 6-meter network.  This backbone
would allow NWS operators to communicate with more distant areas, than
they have been able to do in the past.  This network will require both
6M & 2M capability, with tone alerting.  Tone alerting will allow the
NWS to advise the local Skywarn areas of impending severe weather, as
well as giving the local nets the capability of alerting CleNWS of
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July 14, 1990   p. 3


severe weather reported by local spotters.  Also, CleNWS will have the
ability to monitor various local Skywarn nets for reports, as needed,
to keep in touch with the local situation.  A second frequency on 2M
for each net will be a necessity, for local simplex liaison.

The estimated cost for each operating site is $300.00, using surplus
gear (assuming availability) and some donations.

WB3JDI & WD8OCS have 6M accessibility at this time, Trumbull County
will have this capability soon.

Other local frequencies and bands may be used, but each area MUST
maintain communication capability between 6M & 2M for local alerting
from CleNWS, and to allow CleNWS monitoring capability.

WD8OCS & others to the west are working on UHF linking via a net
covering Lorain County & west.  When placed into operation, this net
will provide excellent coverage to the west & some to the south.

W8AJR reported a 2.5KVA emergency generator has been secured for the 6M
transmitter site to assure reliability in the event of power
disruption.  The generator will be procured with Lake Erie Amateur
Radio Association funds, with the understanding that this group,
CLEWXSKYWARN, would purchase back through other available funding
(discussed later).  At this time there is concern from the owners of
the site about gasoline being stored there:  Resolution on this matter
will be sought.

WD8OCS reported little actual progress in the quest to use several old
AT&T relay towers for sites for remote inputs for the 6M network.
Chris feels the idea will be more likely to succeed if a properly
planned proposal, thoroughly explained & documented in writing, can be
presented at the time of the request.

W8AJR inquired as to whether any members of the body had ever sought
grants from business groups, or others.  Both Erie & Toledo have.  Dave
said a LEARA member has offered to assist in seeking grants or other
funding using his experience and position (executive with Austin
Company) to make contacts, prepare & mail letters, etc.  We would need
to clearly explain our purpose, need, estimated costs, etc. to solicit
participation.  Dick (USH) suggested we may need to use formal grant
applications, either Federal or State format.  Rick (JDI) said money
may be available from County EMA, or others.

Bill Craig explained briefly (from the perspective of a local EMA
Director) how funding may be obtained through the EMA.  He explained
EMA funding is available only to a RACES group, but he doesn't believe
there is any reason funding could not be used to establish the local
base of operations for Skywarn operations.

WB8HHZ said Lucas County is very active with ARES/RACES, and through
their local EMA they had recently completely renovated an operations
center in the basement of the County Jail, complete with new amateur
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July 14, 1990   p. 4


radio equipment, antenna systems, etc.

W8AJR requested all to contact their local EMA Director to see if
funding may be available.  Equipment must remain at the County
Emergency Operations Center, according to Bill Craig, but this should
not present any serious problems in most cases.  Bill mentioned EMA
Directors are now preparing their requests:  The requests must be
submitted by July 20th, so time is very short to seek involvement.
Dave asked all who would be obtaining funding from their EMA to advise
him as quickly as possible to help those seeking other outside funding
have accurate figures of costs expected.

Bill Craig also mentioned the State will fund about $600.00 for
computer equipment to use at the EOC for a Packet station, and they
will also probably provide an additional several hundred dollars toward
the other required equipment (TNC, radio, etc).

W8AJR commented on Packet radio weather information.  Dave explained
the packet station at CleNWS is provided with hourly updates, and these
are downloaded when there is significant change from the previous
report (forecast).  Special Alerts and Warnings are downloaded
immediately upon receipt, and are forwarded to those packet stations
desiring this information.  A problem was recently encountered when a
local PBBS operator took WXNET messages and forwarded them
automatically to other boards.  The forwarding was not the apparent
complaint, rather that the information was being received in Toledo a
day late, and they were not interested in Cleveland weather!  Dave said
the software will be modified to provide weather information to those
PBBSs' who desire this information, with it customized to provide only
the information they want for their area of coverage.  Much more than
Cleveland information is readily available, and can be downloaded if
requested.

WB3JDI presented a map they will be starting to use for Crawford Co.,
Pennsylvania Skywarn very shortly.  This map is marked off in Grid
Squares based on the ARRL Grid Locator Map.  A general discussion
ensued, and it is felt we should prepare something similar for at least
our area of coverage, and possibly the entire state, based on the work
demonstrated by Rick (JDI) & Dick (USH).

The next meeting will be September 29th @ 10:00 am in the Cleveland NWS
Conference room.

The meeting adjourned at 12:05 pm.

Respectfully submitted,




Dave Kersten - N8AUH @ NO8M