#: 12657 S1/Non-tech service 17-Oct-92 07:08:51 Sb: WINNT test guide Fm: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721 To: ALL Hi there, I would like to have some information on how to get WIN NT running. I have bought WINNT SDK from MS Germany. When requesting support from MS Germany they told me they were unable to do any technical (say non-marketing) support but I should go directly through Compuserve MSEUROBETA. So I connected to Compuserve MSEUROBETA. Sending mail to the indicated address proved impossible as the 75300,17 didn't accept any (more) mail. Seems as if it wasn't emptied for some time. So I moved over to the MS WIN32 SDK forum. Well, they told me I should better move to WINNT as I primarily wanted to get NT running first before starting to port software. Posting a message to Azzfar Moazzam in the network forum on 10/12 just proved that he was downloading messages - but there was no reply. So I thought a better idea might be to download bug reports to lib 3. I completed bug reports and started CIM. Oops, no way to upload through CIM! Library section 3 refers to WINNT test guide for more information on upload. - My SDK didn't come with any such information. What should I do now? Hans-Peter There is 1 Reply. #: 12668 S1/Non-tech service 17-Oct-92 10:04:14 Sb: #12657-WINNT test guide Fm: Cohagan 74375,313 To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721 Hans-Peter I think you've found the right place for help. My experience has been that MS generally takes 24-48 hrs to respond to posts here, but they (almost) always do respond and are very helpful. I don't know how long ago you posted, but you might need to just give it a bit more time. I generally post to SYSOP rather than ALL when I have a specific question to MS. ALL has the advantage that you're more likely to get a response from another user who has already solved the same problem. SYSOP has the advantage that you know if/when it's been read by MS because an (X) appears to the right of SYSOP in the TO: line. Although I'm not a CIM user I'm sure you can upload using CIM. It may be time to RTFM! If you have specific questions and post them here perhaps others will join in and help you get started. Good luck, Bill #: 12785 S1/Non-tech service 19-Oct-92 05:52:23 Sb: Future Domain TMC1680 Fm: George Wilk 100113,2621 To: Steve Fait 70444,12 I have a problem booting up NT. I get system error 0x000069. Phase 1 initialisation failure. I have a TMC 1680 controller by Future Domain. Is there a driver for this or a workaround available yet. If there is a driver how do I install it? Thanks...George Wilk #: 12853 S1/Non-tech service 19-Oct-92 13:53:11 Sb: #12785-Future Domain TMC1680 Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: George Wilk 100113,2621 Hi George, >I have a problem booting up NT. I get system error 0x000069. >Phase 1 initialisation failure. This error is generally caused by an unsupported disk controller. The FD-TMC1680 was not supported in the July release. >I have a TMC 1680 controller by Future Domain. >Is there a driver for this or a workaround available yet. >If there is a driver how do I install it? There is an updated driver available in Library 2 as FD1800.ZIP. Instructions for installation are in the FDOMAIN.TXT file which is in the .ZIP. Please post any future Setup problems in section 3 as that is where we normall handle these and it will help us keep the forum organized. Thanks! Steve #: 12908 S1/Non-tech service 19-Oct-92 20:32:59 Sb: Utility Fm: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 To: sysop (X) There is a utility in the library that displays postscript files on screen without the formatting. It doesn't say, but I guess it is an NT program since it bombed under Windows. Is there such a utility that will run under Win 3.1? Since I haven't installed NT yet, that is the environment I need to view the files in. Steve #: 13035 S1/Non-tech service 20-Oct-92 17:44:13 Sb: #12908-Utility Fm: Jeff Lundblad 73537,1203 To: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 (X) Steve, I uploaded just such a utility on Sunday. It has yet to be posted. Watch for LI13t5.zip. It's a "beta" release where I tacked a half decent July-NT-release-postscript-file text interpreter on to a full featured ASCII viewer. I was able to install NT, but then my big disk drive died, so I'm still Win16 bound. Thus, the program is a Win 3.1 app. Jeff. There is 1 Reply. #: 13053 S1/Non-tech service 20-Oct-92 21:13:27 Sb: #13035-Utility Fm: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 To: Jeff Lundblad 73537,1203 Jeff, Thanks for the reply. I will be looking for it! Steve #: 12683 S1/Non-tech service 17-Oct-92 14:21:28 Sb: #12460-WFW anybody? Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 To: wiley 70473,1351 (X) Hi Stu, Can you comment on the following: I have no problem connecting my NT box to various Windows for Workgroup machines, making connections in both directions is easy. This is not surprising given the built-in WfW functionality in NT. (control panel/networks etc). However will the extra twiddly applets found in WfW make it into NT? eg, the chat facility, msmail 3 bits etc? Jon #: 12866 S1/Non-tech service 19-Oct-92 15:25:38 Sb: #12683-WFW anybody? Fm: wiley 70473,1351 To: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 (X) Jon, You know I can't comment on the unreleased product. That would be like MGM giving you the end of the movie first, just not possible. Actually I'm fairly confident that the Windows functionality will be produced in 32 bit, I haven't heard anything in particular about the applets themselves. It can't be that big of a deal to port them over, however, you must know they are not as high priority as the OS right now. I guess I'll wait along side you for this one. Stu Wiley Developer Service Team #: 13074 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 03:39:16 Sb: #12866-WFW anybody? Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 To: wiley 70473,1351 (X) Hmmm. I certainly don't want you to "open mouth and insert foot" , but although I'm not too worried about the applets per se, there is the netdde functionality that is currently missing from NT. I know we've got the rpc stuff, but that's a different thing altogether. Hopefully the netdde bits will make it into the beta release. :-) Ooops, just found a comment from Bruce Ramsey over in MSWin32/S12 saying that "NetDDE is not in the current builds of Windows NT: it may be another 2 months before it will be in the builds" Guess that means beta 2. Thanks. Jon #: 13021 S1/Non-tech service 20-Oct-92 15:27:13 Sb: ProCOMM test Fm: Todd Fulks (Microsoft) 71075,651 To: Steve Fai This is a test in Windows NT - using PROCOMM for Windows There is 1 Reply. #: 13076 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 03:49:03 Sb: #13021-ProCOMM test Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Todd Fulks (Microsoft) 71075,651 Todd, <> Well I'm GLAD to see this. PW is my main means of accessing CIS. I do hope this is the Windows 3.1 version, since as fas as I know there is no NT version of PW available, yet. Art #: 13156 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 14:54:14 Sb: WIN NT October Release Fm: Anil K. Sodhy 70143,365 To: sysop (X) I was supposed to have received a mailing confirming my address so that the October release can be mailed to me. I have not yet received that mailing. I was, however, shipped the July release recently. Can I confirm my address to you, in a private communication, so that I receive the October release on time. Please do not ask me to telephone Customer Service as I do not have the time to waste on the telephone waiting for someone to talk with me; the last time I called, I waited 90 minutes and still did not get anyone to talk with me. #: 13164 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 17:03:23 Sb: Fortran & VB compilers Fm: Lina Au 76666,46 To: sysop (X) Could you tell me what time frame we could expect fortran compilers and VisualBasic compilers for NT? Thanks! #: 13239 S1/Non-tech service 22-Oct-92 06:55:56 Sb: Windows development Fm: Alex Smariga / POC-IT 75766,1150 To: All I'm looking for a Windows developer who has assisted in the conversion of a Procedural (COBOL) app to en event driven app(Windows C++). We are in the mid stages of developing our prototype app and need someone to critique the design and review the coding/standards employyed so far. I need the initial discussions to occur the week of November 2 in Los Angeles. If you have developed a Windows app in C and would like to see a terrific app be created, please call: Alex Smariga 310-393-4552 (voice) 310-451-2888 (fax) or E-Mail me. #: 12583 S1/Non-tech service 16-Oct-92 12:29:47 Sb: #12507-Intel EtherExpress Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Alex Bronstein 75070,2452 Hi Alex, From what I have seen so far, Flexboot is installed right near the end of the graphics mode part of the install, and I am not sure if you could change it so it only installs that portion of Windows NT. You might try the BOOTSE.ZIP program in Library 4 to restore the boot sector, but we cannot endorse or recommend that method of reinstallation. Of course, if it works for you, great, if not, you already have a tape backup of your drive so in your case you wouldn't lose anything . If I run across a better way than reinstalling the entire system or trying that program, I'll try to pass it on. Thanks, Steve #: 13251 S1/Non-tech service 22-Oct-92 08:52:21 Sb: Intel EtherExpress Fm: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 To: sysop (X) I seem to have missed a thread concerning support for the Intel EtherExpress. I don't see it supported in the October hardware list. We have a room full of these fast, low-cost cards and I already sent in a HWFEED.TXT. Is there any good news about this? Some vendor's Ethernet hardware is so similar that other drivers work (unsupported, of course). Any hope? #: 13132 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 11:08:19 Sb: Beta vs. Prerelease SDK? Fm: Wim Bonner 72561,3135 To: Microsoft I've been wanting to know if I should apply for the beta program. I'm already developing NT using my SDK, so I want to know if the beta program will get updates to the operating system and drivers any more frequently than the SDK prerelease program? Wim There is 1 Reply. #: 13146 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 12:52:39 Sb: #13132-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK? Fm: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340 To: Wim Bonner 72561,3135 No need to apply for the beta program. The SDK will provide everything you need. -Dwight (MS) There is 1 Reply. #: 13152 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 14:27:43 Sb: #13146-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK? Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520 To: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340 (X) I've received my WIN32 SDK for WIN_NT. When I logged on here, there was a message stating that I needed to 'register' in order to receive the updated CDROMS. I didn't receive any registration for in the package... Does that mean I'm registered? Wade There is 1 Reply. #: 13165 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 17:08:06 Sb: #13152-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK? Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Wade Mintz 72110,520 Hi Wade, >I didn't receive any registration for in the package... Does that mean >I'm registered? When you called and ordered over the phone, you were registered automatically and should receive all the updates. Talk to you later, Steve #: 13284 S1/Non-tech service 22-Oct-92 12:51:38 Sb: #13165-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK? Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520 To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X) Thanks Steve. Since I'm working with a partner and ordered two SDKs, will I receive 1 or two CDs? Wade #: 13339 S1/Non-tech service 23-Oct-92 04:39:33 Sb: #13146-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK? Fm: Wim Bonner 72561,3135 To: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340 It is good to know that I should get everything the beta has (Will I get general end user Docs for NT?) with the SDK. One other question I had. Since the SDK is purchased directly from Microsoft, does it get registered automaticly? I didn't see any registration card in the box, and things are a bit scattered now. I want the updates to continue to go to the address I originally had it sent to. What address should I Mail or Fax a letter to to make sure that everything is correct dealing with my registartion. (The person getting my mail had not received anything about the new version for me.) Wim #: 13177 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 18:55:28 Sb: Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 To: All I really appreciate the replies I've received to my questions. After seeing the back-and-forth arguments on Fidonet concerning OS/2 vs WinNT, I was a little nervous about mentioning that I'm running OS/2 now. People seem to take sides with such religious fervor that one might think they actually *wrote* the program. In any event, I'm still a little fuzzy as to which operating system is best-suited for the end-user. I'm looking to the future hoping that one of these operating systems will finally, once and for all, get rid of the Dos stranglehold. The impression I'm getting from the replies is that OS/2 is geared more for the desktop and that WinNT is geared more for the server. Is this an accurate assessment? Raymond S. Swaim There are 2 Replies. #: 13202 S1/Non-tech service 21-Oct-92 23:21:56 Sb: #13177-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 Raymond, If you *really* want to know the answer, you probably will have to try them both. A lot depends on what your needs are. Bruce #: 13316 S1/Non-tech service 22-Oct-92 18:24:32 Sb: #13202-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X) I do plan on trying both. I won't be trying NT though until it's released. I'm not gung-ho enough to use up my drive space for a product that isn't anywhere near completion yet. If it doesn't run the applications I currently own, then it would just be a waste of disk space. I didn't beta-test OS/2 either. However, I did get the 32-bit beta since it was a good deal farther along. Raymond S. Swaim #: 13217 S1/Non-tech service 22-Oct-92 03:32:41 Sb: #13177-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 Raymond, <> I'd say that both OS's will be used on the desktop. I think that NT has a bit more in the feature set than OS/2 does. But the determining factor between OS/2 and NT will be the resources (hardware) that is available. NT will probably penetrate the workstation and server markets. It will also make a great development platform. I expect that device drivers will also appear in abundance for NT. But for *really* good performance I expect NT will need a minimum of a 386/33 with 8 Mb (or more) and my personal preference will be the fastest 486 with at least 16 Mb (probably 32) with at least a 500 Mb drive. But I'll really be working NT to death. OS/2 will compete with Windows 3.1 and it's variants (IMHO). I think NT will be competing with UNIX workstations and Server OS's (Lan Manager, Netware, etc). In time NT will penetrate the lower platforms as well. I think the final determination will be driven by hardware prices. You can get a fast machine with lots of memory for a good price nowadays. Art #: 13347 S1/Non-tech service 23-Oct-92 05:57:33 Sb: #13217-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, >>will be the resources (hardware) that is available.<< That, IMHO, is only one of the issues. Another will be compatibility with legacy apps, user interface will play a key role as well. Whether one likes WPS or not, it is a significant differentiator, and will play a large part in the buying decision. John There is 1 Reply. #: 13353 S1/Non-tech service 23-Oct-92 06:06:29 Sb: #13347-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 (X) John, <> that's very true. I personally do not like the WPS. Untill a new shell is available and supportted I will not use OS/2 2.0 on a daily basis. I'm going to install the new beta and see what it looks like as well as check out the compatability with my hardware. But that's just to keep up with things. I doubt if it will be installed for too long. When I need the space.... Art #: 13346 S1/Non-tech service 23-Oct-92 05:57:27 Sb: #13177-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 Raymond, >>which operating system is best-suited for the end-user.<< This is a 'Holy Grail' type search. The correct answer is 'one size doesn't fit all'. There are a lot of issues to be weighed and trade offs-to be made. We have over-laps, but not truly direct competition (except for Win/NT & UNIX). I visualize it like this: DOS/Win----> <-----OS/2 2.0 Win/NT-----> When IBM releases an OS/2 3.0 and MS fills the gap between DOS/Win & Win/NT things will get even more interesting. John #: 12714 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 08:55:06 Sb: Windows NT beta update Fm: Graham Stephen 100013,50 To: Paul Fletcher [OWL] 72057,703 Paul, I think the number you require is 0256 381100. I believe that is the NT Hotline. Glad to see I am not alone in Scotland with NT. Graham #: 12780 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:19:20 Sb: #12408-Binary Portability Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Ben, I'm not really familiar with ANDF, however surely the principle behind it is to enable the SAME binary to run on MULTIPLE platforms. So where do the upgrades come in? I'm drawing comparisms with the old CIS-Cobol system which had an interpreted object code able to run on several platforms. Andy. #: 12719 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 10:47:32 Sb: #12549-When will NT ship? Fm: Ladislav Nemec 70732,3207 To: Bill Herder 73417,3431 (X) Just kidding, anyway. I certainly have an apprehension to vote for a CHANGE. It may well be for the worse. On the other hand, Bush did not seem to have any ideas to begin with and, so far, there is no indication that he will ever have some. The whole thing is like switching to a new and wondeful OS just to discover how half-baked the whole thing is. But, most of us do it anyway. Regards, LN. There is 1 Reply. #: 12790 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 06:11:07 Sb: #12719-When will NT ship? Fm: Bill Herder 73417,3431 To: Ladislav Nemec 70732,3207 LN, got to agree there. Sounds like propaganda rhetoric, but I do believe that most problems have risen from Congress. Bush has never had the support to promote change of any kind. Oh well, we'll see. Bill #: 12711 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 08:13:20 Sb: Release Registration? Fm: Irv Pavlik 71131,3347 To: sysop (X) When I received the NT Pre-release I saw no registration form included with the package. Do I need to register? or am i already registered? I was assuming I was automaticaly registered since there was no form. Thanks Irv Pavlik 71131,3347 #: 12829 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 11:04:35 Sb: #12711-Release Registration? Fm: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340 To: Irv Pavlik 71131,3347 If you're referring to the Win32 SDK, you were automatically registered when you ordered the product. -Dwight (MS) #: 12784 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 05:47:29 Sb: Sound -> noises Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: All I have spent this past weekend tweaking and exploring WINNT. I have now, and never had before, numerous sounds emananting from the box during routine TAPCIS passes. I have noted, with WIN 3.1, basic single beeps out of TAPCIS when I complete a pass to CIS for example, but now I am greeted with tonal de-dah-dees and the like. Not a problem just a difference. If my TAPCIS config, parms and the like have not been altered from WIN 3.1 to the NT setup, where do the sounds now come from? I doubt, although with the brain damage I have incurred in the last few days it IS possible, that TAPCIS has learned music while I was learning NTso I am concluding NT adds a 4 piece band to Apps where Windows 3.1 provided sheet music only. What is the straight skinny? #: 12833 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 11:24:34 Sb: #12784-Sound -> noises Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X) Hi Denis, > I have now, and never had before, numerous sounds emananting > from the box during routine TAPCIS passes. I have noted, with > WIN 3.1, basic single beeps out of TAPCIS when I complete a > pass to CIS for example, but now I am greeted with tonal > de-dah-dees and the like. Not a problem just a difference. If > my TAPCIS config, parms and the like have not been altered > from WIN 3.1 to the NT setup, where do the sounds now come > from? They are actually the sounds TAPCIS normally makes. TAPCIS makes a series of tones so generate the "blipping" sounds it makes and when you slow them down you get some weird sounding music instead of the blipping effect. MS-DOS support in the July release had not been optimized and was relatively slow. The beta release this month should help improve this since we did a lot of work on MS-DOS/WOW. BTW, I was perplexed when I first heard it too ! Talk to you later, Steve #: 12628 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 17:48:30 Sb: #12063-ATM 2.02 Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) After you questioned me on the matter, I wondered if was loading ATM, or something related to it, from my Windows 3.1 directory. Sure enough, what I am seeing is not ATM itself, but rather an application with the icon title ATMCNTRL that WINNT found when scanning my disk for Windows applications. When I looked at the properties of this icon, I found it is the control ap for the ATM that is installed in my Windows 3.1 directory. ATM is not actually in NT at all. No wonder it screws up WINNT when I run it and ask it to deinstall ATM. Actually, if NT is supposed to be so resistent to applications doing things they shouldn't, I wonder how ATMCNTRL able to cause me to have problems logging out of NT? ATMCNTRL from WIN31 must know how to do things to NT itself, even if it isn't supposed to be able to. I have already pressed Steve Fait [Microsoft] again about my ATM problems, and he is probably wondering what I am talking about. Maybe he'll read this. Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12638 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 19:26:46 Sb: #12628-ATM 2.02 Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 (X) Bob: trust me on this one. ATM will really screw up NT. It seems to be one of those calls that locks everything up and NT gets upset. ATM writes to system.ini in 3.1 but this is a no-no in NT. bob #: 12864 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 15:21:27 Sb: #12628-ATM 2.02 Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 (X) Hi Bob, >No wonder it screws up WINNT when I run it and ask it to deinstall ATM. >Actually, if NT is supposed to be so resistent to applications doing >things they shouldn't, I wonder how ATMCNTRL able to cause me to have >problems logging out of NT? ATMCNTRL from WIN31 must know how to do >things to NT itself, even if it isn't supposed to be able to. This was a bug in the July release (if you crashed the MS-DOS/WOW subsystem, you would be unable to logoff Windows NT successfully). It is fixed in this month's updated version. TTYL, Steve #: 12631 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 18:16:19 Sb: #12279-ATM 2.02 Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Pardon my ignorance, but what's the Magic Button? Reset? Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12639 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 19:26:50 Sb: #12631-ATM 2.02 Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 (X) Magic button is the rest switch, the old cold reboot panic attack . bob #: 12721 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 10:52:52 Sb: Mouse & CD-ROM Fm: allen wyatt 72561,2207 To: All Will the Windows NT spec, for final release, absolutely require the use of a mouse, or will it be one of those "strongly recommended" items. Also, will final Windows NT require the use of a CD-ROM, or is that for beta/SDK only? Thanx #: 12900 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 19:09:14 Sb: #12721-Mouse & CD-ROM Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: allen wyatt 72561,2207 Hi Allen, >Will the Windows NT spec, for final release, absolutely require the use >of a mouse, or will it be one of those "strongly recommended" items. No. A mouse is very helpful and highly recommended, but should not required to use Windows NT. >Also, will final Windows NT require the use of a CD-ROM, or is that for >beta/SDK only? Starting with the beta release of the operating system (and the second Win32 SDK pre-release), we will include a graphical installation that does not require a CD-ROM drive. You will need one to get the files off of the CD, but once you have them on a network share you will no longer require it. I believe there will be floppies available for the final release as well. Talk to you later, Steve #: 12917 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 21:55:49 Sb: #12721-Mouse & CD-ROM Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: allen wyatt 72561,2207 Allen, The mouse is one of those strongly recommended things. Although you can use all of the Windows line without a mouse, the mouse makes it eaiser. As far as the distribution method of the media is concened, I've heard that the SDK will only be distributed on CD and the end user product will be available available on both diskettes and CD. Darren #: 12889 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:18:21 Sb: New stuff on NT Fm: pam fowler 72360,3446 To: pam fowler I have recently received my initial copy of Win NT. It has been on order for the past 3 months. What I need to know is if their are any updates that I need to get? Thanks Pam Fowler JHU/APL There is 1 Reply. #: 12933 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 04:05:59 Sb: #12889-New stuff on NT Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: pam fowler 72360,3446 Pam, <> Not really. If you have a FD SCSI card, or an WD ethernet card, or a DEC keyboard, there a few uploads in lib 2. Other than that I am not aware of any updates. The next NT release is do about the end of the month. As i understand it that is the first major update. Art #: 12608 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 15:04:59 Sb: #12347-ANSI.SYS available? Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: john stoddard 70670,2106 Hi John, The first final release of Windows NT will not provide support for ANSI escape sequences. You could create your own ANSI escape sequence handlers by parsing the commands and calling the appropriate console APIs to execute the function. You can, of course, change all the same settings from the system menu of the SCS (Single Command Shell) as you can with ANSI.SYS. You just will not be able to set your PROMPT to use neat colors for different things like you could under DOS - at least not in the first release. Talk to you later, Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 12669 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:04:29 Sb: #12608-ANSI.SYS available? Fm: Cohagan 74375,313 To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X) Steve- |The first final release of Windows NT will not provide support for ... ^^^^^^^^^^^ I guess it's a comment on software technology that someone can say this with an (apparently) straight face!! :-) Bill #: 12851 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 13:33:13 Sb: #12669-ANSI.SYS available? Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X) >> |The first final release of Windows NT will not provide support for >> ... ^^^^^^^^^^^ >I guess it's a comment on software technology that someone can say this >with an (apparently) straight face!! :-) Oops. My faux pas. I was thinking final (ie, non-beta) release of the OS and I wanted to make it clear that I meant... well, heck I'm not sure what I *meant* to type. I, of course, mean the first retail release of the Windows NT OS . --- straight faced . There is 1 Reply. #: 12935 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 04:38:43 Sb: #12851-ANSI.SYS available? Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X) An I thought it was - small frown, as opposed to - big grin Anothe giant leap for for (my) narrow minds... #: 12592 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 12:42:41 Sb: #12557-Freecell Fm: John Stoddard 72400,2551 To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 (X) Absolutely a great game! My additions to your strategy points are, 1) be VERY careful about using up the free cells at the upper left - when I lose, it's usually because I foolishly built up too many cards there. and 2) try to develop open columns. These facilitate big transfers; notice that if you, for instance, try to move 5 cards and get the message saying you only have 4 open cells, and you can move a single card up to the upper left to open up a column (... see rule one above, though...) you will now have enough room - a 2-for-1, as it were. If you have two columns open, you can move a stack of nearly any size. I'm running about 65% myself, my best boast is a 17-game winning streak. John There is 1 Reply. #: 12817 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 10:26:46 Sb: #12592-Freecell Fm: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 To: John Stoddard 72400,2551 17 games in a row! My best so far is 7 and I'm running at 67%. Yes, clearing up columns definitely helps, especially when you can start building a new, "more stable" column there. But speaking of moving colums, isn't it neat how the program is "smart" enough to know how to temporarily move cards to empty spaces and columns when you're moving a big column? I guess Microsoft has learned that the best way to make an operating system a success is to include a neat card game with it. :) Bruce Terry Teleware, Inc. #: 12974 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 09:42:19 Sb: #12817-Freecell Fm: John Stoddard 72400,2551 To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 .. yes, or maybe the best way to decrease their competitor's productivity... ;-) I wonder, though, why Freecell doesn't figure out to use empty columns when doing a move of a column? You only get as many cards moved as will transfer via the upper cells, even if you have multiple open columns. Too bad they don't ship source, like the games in the original OS/2 SDK... John #: 12619 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 16:52:51 Sb: #12557-Freecell Fm: Jeong Ho Lee 70253,1244 To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 (X) >> 1) Move aces up as soon as possible. It's too obvious to be a strategy. >> 2) Try to develop "King Columns".... That's not always true. We have 2 strategies to win a game - long term strategy and short term strategy. It is a ultimate goal to make "king's column". But, most of times, simply we cannot develope it because of scrambled card arrangements. During a game, we have to develope many short term strategy to improve card-arrangement. My rule of thumb is "Be patient". Never put cards on the temporary area, unless you can restore them within finite moves. You have to foresee even 10 or more moves ahead. By incrementally improving arrangement of cards, suddenly you will win. My winning streak WAS 50+, I has erased the game to save my life. If you can win 5 games in a row, we can easily win 50 in a row. So, stop playing when you have won 5 in a row. jLee There is 1 Reply. #: 12819 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 10:31:35 Sb: #12619-Freecell Fm: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 To: Jeong Ho Lee 70253,1244 Yes, moving aces up as soon as possible may seem obvious, but I mean I move them up even at the cost of filling up most of the free spaces at the top. Also, I agree that developing a "King Column" isn't always the wisest move, especially when you can't do much with it! But what I do is develop the highest possible card as a column head and move all cards possible onto it and continue to try to make a "King Column". And yes, you are right. Patience is the best advice for this game. If you've won 50+ games in a row, then you must be considering if indeed every game is winnable. So, have you proven it? Has anyone else proven it? Bruce Terry Teleware, Inc. #: 12850 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 13:21:37 Sb: #12819-Freecell Fm: Jeong Ho Lee 70253,1244 To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 >> you must be considering if indeed every game is winnable... I cannot prove it mathematically. But I guess it may be true. A few games required me 30 minutes or more to win. jLee #: 12809 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 10:00:09 Sb: new system Fm: joe parness 70363,1137 To: sysop (X) I am looking to buy a new system and to say the least I am really confused!@#$@ Can anybody make a recommendation about ISA vs. EISA ? What kind of troller to buy as well as video. I of course want as much speed as possible (local bus video and disk ?) I want to put 32 megs on the system, any problems with this ? #: 12932 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 04:00:50 Sb: #12809-new system Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: joe parness 70363,1137 Joe, <> Now that's a can of worms to open! But considering that you want to use 32 Mb of memory and the fastest video around, I'd recommend an EISA system. And really just for one reason... Memory addressing! An EISA machine really does offer 32 bit addressing to physical memory and bus. While an ISA machine limits this to 24 bit addressing. 24 bit addresing cause problems with > 16 Mb DMA transfers. It also appears to be a problem with ATI's new MACH coprocessor line. The MACH line has a 12 Mb physical RAM limit on an ISA machine. You could ask Bob Chronister for more info there. Art PS: There are other EISA advantages, with a few minor disadvantages, but I didn't want to type for that long... #: 12980 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 09:57:14 Sb: #12932-new system Fm: joe parness 70363,1137 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Do any of these problems go away on a local bus box ? #: 13063 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 22:23:42 Sb: Comparison NT to OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: all In the IBM OS2SUPPORT forum, there is a document called "YOS2TX.ZIP". It seems to contain a rebuttal to some documents which Microsoft published comparing OS/2 and Windows NT. Being a fair person, I would like to read the documents from Microsoft. I have read the rebuttal from IBM. However, that is only one side to the story. Could some nice person upload to the forum the comparison document between Microsoft NT and OS/2 2.0. It would be nice to read the original information which caused such heated debate over in IBM land. Thanks. #: 12627 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 17:30:02 Sb: #12535-To NT or not to NT? Fm: John Hall 70750,2341 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) Yes, I work for MS. #: 12728 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 12:36:39 Sb: #12293-To NT or not to NT? Fm: Earl Baum - SASI 71053,3421 To: david sinfield 100112,414 You may want to consider Windows for Workgroups, which has some of the 32-bit advantages of NT, but with lower hardware requirements. It also adds peer-to-peer capabilities to your Novell Network. Earl Baum, CNE #: 13066 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 22:56:10 Sb: #12728-To NT or not to NT? Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Earl Baum - SASI 71053,3421 >You may want to consider Windows for Workgroups, which has some of the 32-bit advantages of NT, but with lower hardware requirements. Hi Earl, just wondering what 32-bit advantages of NT are you refering to? Thanx. Bill Lee, CNE #: 12571 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 10:21:10 Sb: NT and UNIX Fm: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154 To: Steve Fait (Microsoft) 75300,3143 (X) Steve: I wondered whether or not NT will be supporting UNIX boot options. As you probably know, a system running, say, SCO Unix gives the user the option of a DOS boot. NT Gives the same option. However, to switch from NT to Unix, I have to boot NT, choose the DOS boot option, run fdisk, switch the active partition to the Unix partition, and then reboot. This is highly inconvenient. If you're not the person to be asking, please redirect me. thanks for your attention. - Mike. There are 2 Replies. #: 12612 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 15:49:17 Sb: #12571-NT and UNIX Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154 Hi Mike, To the best of my knowledge the first release of Windows NT will not support Unix boot options and MS-DOS/Windows NT dual boot is the only supported feature. Others in this forum have managed to get the OS/2 dual boot to work with Flexboot (though it also is unsupported) and it may be possible to do a similar thing with Unix. Post a message in Section 3 (Windows NT setup) to see if anyone has tried this yet. There is a good chance you will have to use the sequence you describe to dual boot between the two, however. Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 12630 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 18:07:59 Sb: #12612-NT and UNIX Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X) Steve, I would expect that since MS is pushing UNIX & OS/2 migrating to NT that it will have to provide developers a way to have both systems installed and be able to boot between them. Carl #: 12907 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 20:14:56 Sb: #12630-NT and UNIX Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 Hi Carl, Currently development here is focusing on offering as stable an operating system as possible. I think they are more concerned with getting the OS solid than working on additional dual-boot support and other features right now even though they would make nice additions to the product. I'm not in Marketing, so if there is some other motivation behind it I'm unaware of them at this time :-). TTYL, Steve #: 12739 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 17:49:39 Sb: #12571-NT and UNIX Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154 Mike: I don't think that microsoft cares to much about UNIX. Windows 3.1 won't allow you to turn on fastdisk if there is a UNIX partition on the same hard drive. Even though this was brought up in the Windows 3.1 beta it was never changed. Carlen #: 12991 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:41:40 Sb: #12739-NT and UNIX Fm: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 Carlen: Actually, if I was willing to risk installing the pre-beta NT on the same drive as I have UNIX, I could probably always boot UNIX, then choose DOS boot if I wanted it. The DOS boot just starts the DOS partition, which would be an NT partition, so I could then choose between NT and DOS. Kind of an IF/THEN/ELSE IF cascade, huh? In the meantime, I'll just live with it. Thanks for your input. Mike #: 13162 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 15:53:03 Sb: #12571-NT and UNIX Fm: Louis Kahn 70473,1012 To: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154 The way I have found to do this is with BOOT MANAGER, it comes with OS/2 2.0 as part of FDISK. The setup is as follows: Partition 1: NT/DOS with NT's Dual Boot Option Turned On Partition 2: IBM OS/2 2.0 Partition 3: UnixWare (UNIX Partition) Partition 4: BOOT MANAGER (Active Partion) When the system boots it boots into the BOOT MANAGER, then I choose the partition I want to bood. By doing this I get 4 OS's on one Hard Disk. I will loose DOS when NTFS is more stable, but that's fine, I don't want DOS anyway. This solution supports at least 3 OSes and if any of those OSes have dual boot options, then you can double the # of OSes. If you want more info, let me know. Louis Kahn US Centers For Disease Control NCPS/IM | IRMO LMK2@CPSIM1.FWPK.CDC.GOV #: 12772 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 03:58:02 Sb: ANSI tape support? Fm: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 To: sysop sysop (X) Someone recently asked me if anyone knew of ANSI tape support being done for Windows NT -- anybody know of such a beast? #: 13166 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 17:08:13 Sb: #12772-ANSI tape support? Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 Hi David, >Someone recently asked me if anyone knew of ANSI tape support being done >for Windows NT -- anybody know of such a beast? Yes, we have a full API set for tape backup using a customized version of Maynard-format tapes built in to the system. There are no overviews in the SDK help files yet, but the API descriptions are all there. If you are looking for another kind of tape support, there is a good chance it will come from a third-party vendor in the future. Steve #: 12924 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 23:51:10 Sb: Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Matt Nations 73417,511 To: all Will MS or a third party offer dynamic compression a la Stacker or comparable for WinNT upon or soon after general release? Alternately, will WinNT enable us to keep our DOS based Stacker 2.0 [or some other comparable] dynamic file compression? We purchased the Win32SDK before realizing that without dynamic compression conversion to WinNT would be much to expensive if first we will have to acquire enough storage to contain noncompressed files. Our business depends upon a great number of AutoCAD, Quattro Pro and dBase files, all of which are notoriously inefficient file formats. Consequently, Stacker 2.0 has become indispensible for us. There are 2 Replies. #: 12934 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 04:26:38 Sb: #12924-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 To: Matt Nations 73417,511 Matt, NT is currently only *just* entering beta testing. Providing bells and whistles like stacker is not a priority at the moment. As I recall MS is planning to provide its own compression utility, just don't expect to see it till after commercial release. IOW its too early. best...Tony. #: 13065 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 22:39:26 Sb: #12934-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Tim Butterfield [RDI] 70304,277 To: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 Tony, Since each DOS box is a VM, shouldn't they be allowed to use their own device drivers (obviously with limits controlled by NT), ala config.sys? By doing this, users could boot a DOS session with a specific config and autoexec and have access to their stacker drive, non-supported CD-ROM, etc. I have an old Sony 321B CD-ROM drive which I can use from DOS but cannot use from NT. If I can't get a driver for running it directly under NT, I'd at least want to be able to access it from a DOS box. ie, I want a *real* DOS box. Tim There are 2 Replies. #: 13078 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 03:58:12 Sb: #13065-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Tim Butterfield [RDI] 70304,277 Tim, <> Direct access to the hardware vis a DOS app is a violation of NT's basic robustness/security features. I don't think this is going to happen anytime in the near future. These DOS specific drivers will need to be re-written as an NT driver. NT's DOS and Windows 3.x sub-systems are not designed to be 100% compatible with the real DOS/Win 3.x for _all_ DOS & Windows apps. Mostly it will depend on how well the manufacture followed the rules. Art PS: I forgot. NT does not have a DOS box. It has a console window. :) #: 13090 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 07:02:15 Sb: #13065-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 To: Tim Butterfield [RDI] 70304,277 >> ie, I want a *real* DOS box. << OS/2 has one. NT never will. I'm not trying to put down NT, I respect the reasons for this but the OS/2 approach works very well, including the ability to load a different set of DOS drivers in each DOS session. #: 13125 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 10:28:14 Sb: #13090-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X) If there's a big enough demand, I'm sure Insignia will do a version of SoftPC for NT. It's kind of a funny idea, emulating an x86 chip in software on x86 hardware, but if there's a market, there'll be a product. #: 12959 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 08:13:17 Sb: #12924-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 To: Matt Nations 73417,511 Matt, I believe that STAC is very interested in providing NT compatibility/support for Stacker drives, although it may be some time before anything is available. You might try to contact STAC directly or via their BBS and ask the question there. -- Daniel Norton #: 13158 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 15:29:36 Sb: #12959-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Cohagan 74375,313 To: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 (X) Daniel- Do you have a number for the STAC BBS? Bill There are 2 Replies. #: 13163 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 16:48:19 Sb: #13158-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Gregory Justice 70631,152 To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X) Type GO STACKER! #: 13193 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:39:16 Sb: #13158-Stacker or like inWinNT? Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X) The STAC BBS is +1 619 431 7405. Have your serial number handy. -- Daniel #: 13052 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 20:49:44 Sb: DEC/NT Fm: pam fowler 72360,3446 To: 71041,2613 (X) Forgot to ask a question regarding NT. When I was talking with Washington, I ask about the Alpha units that DEC is planning on releasing soon. When will NT be ready for testing in BETA on an Alpha? The person that I talked wwith was not certain if you would be providing that at all, and that perhaps I might need to talk with DEC. IF this is the case, any help that you could send my way would be a big help. If I need to communicate with DEC let me know and I will contact them. We are hopefull of getting an Alpha soon per perhaps. Thanks Again Pam Fowler JHU/APL There is 1 Reply. #: 13073 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 03:36:03 Sb: #13052-DEC/NT Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: pam fowler 72360,3446 Pam, <> Wish I knew. I hear through the trade mags that NT actually ran on an Alpha somewhere, but there was no other mention. I'd suggest talking directly to your DEC rep and see what he can find out for you. <> If you do I'd certainly like to hear how well it does. Art #: 13206 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 00:07:09 Sb: #13052-DEC/NT Fm: Ken North 71301,1306 To: pam fowler 72360,3446 DEC has several centers nationwide which are supporting migration of applications from the VAX product line to the Alpha. These sites provide access to the hardware, software and tools to facilitate the conversion. But, the support is for VMS for Alpha. I've not heard of NT conversion support. Call DEC for more info. #: 13293 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 13:58:51 Sb: Marketer/C Programmer Fm: Mark DeWitt 70403,224 To: all *A major software company seeks 5 people to relocate to Washington state- in Marketing Department. These 5 will work to convince corporations of the technical merits of the entire software product line. Requires 5-10 years experience including: BSCS or MSCS education- a. 2+ years in Windows SDK /or C development for MS DOS/Windows b. Strong Marketing and persuasion skills in working with corporations Base salary depends on exp. + 15% bonus + stock plan + relocation + full benefits For further information please call Eric Dunlap at (415) 327-8801. #: 12572 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 10:38:50 Sb: #12478-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 Chuck, Thing like security, Unicode support, etc. are not simple add ons. It will require new file systems and the like can not be written is a day. I would estimate about 6 mos design. 18 mos code, unit & alpha test. 6 mos validation and beta. This is about half the time that it takes to build an OS from scratch. It will take time port/rewrite things like the workplace shell as well. Putting more people on the project can not speed it up. Much of the older OS/2 code is all assembler and that code will have to be rewritten in C. Yes you have a working kernel but that is just a piece of the OS. Much of rest will be primarily new code. Carl #: 12573 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 10:38:59 Sb: #12464-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will, From what I understand is that NT was originally developed by MS for the OS/2 environment not for Windows. However, the rift was probably two sided. Both IBM & MS wanted to do OS/2 their own way. They kept butting heads because each company and a different view of the industry. IBM was never too interested in Windows because they felt that PM was a better API. MS OTOH was impressed by the sales of Windows knowing the since the API was under the covers that it did not matter much to the average consumer. It was a good idea for both parties to split because they can now go their own ways. This give us the opportunity to see who's vision is better. Unfortunately I have a clearer image of MS's view that IBM's. Even though I come from an IBM background dating back to the 50s, I can not seem to elicit a clear view from IBM as to what its strategic objectives are. This does not leave me with warm fuzzies. Carl #: 12581 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 12:21:12 Sb: #12563-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will, From the data/presumptions in the column, I wouldn't have drawn as an extreme conclusion. Our diff's here are essentially ones of absolute magntitude. I agree that every day of NT slip benefits OS/2 (and of course the *IXs). I also think there are going to be some folks are going to be real unhappy campers when they run in to one of the Win16 or DOS gotcha's and find that there may never be a solution for their problems. It seems even when MS is forthright about the DOS/Win16 issues (and at the non-exec levels they have been pretty forthright as a rule), people choose not to listen. I also don't buy the claim, by a long shot, that NT's and OS/2's resource requirements are equivalent that one sees on occasion. On this issue you may have given NT too much benefit of the doubt. Besides at least a 4MB RAM difference, there is at least a 25% processor power difference. But does all this add up to your prediction, I don't think so. More critical will be how long it takes MS to fill the gap between Win 3.1 & Win NT, plus move the Win interface to the next level. I think OS/2 fills a nice sweet spot in the continium that MS has missed, plus ProgMan/FileMan is getting real dated (anyone hear any rumblings about an NDW/NT? I sure do miss it when I run NT). NT just doesn't cover enuf of the market to qualify as the straw to possibly break MS's back. It could tarnish MS's image a bit, but it will take dropping the ball totally in the next low to mid range Win to do them in. I don't see that as a likely scenario, BTW. I also don't see MS blowing OS/2 out of the water. It is just too useful an OS. John There is 1 Reply. #: 12604 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 14:19:25 Sb: #12581-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) >But does all this add up to your prediction, I don't think so. John, What prediction do you think I've made that all this does not add up to? I'm really not being deliberately obtuse, honest! I've not got the Upside piece handy so I don't recall exactly what I said there, but to the best of my recollection I said that I expected Microsoft (and Windows) to suffer, shall we say, a certain 'fall from grace' over the next 12-18 months. NT is only one part of that. Other parts include: 1) Windows still really isn't quite the overwhelming presence Microsoft claims that it is (and that many in the trade press seem to believe that it is); 2) Microsoft's revenue stream from royalties is likely to be under some downward pressure as a result of the recent renegotiation of the contract with IBM; 3) Microsoft's applications competitors are starting to get competitive in the Windows market; 4) Microsoft revenue growth cannot continue anywhere close to current rates for much longer (but MSFT stock valuation assumes that it will); 5) Microsoft's highly competitive corporate culture, which doesn't make for very good winners is likely to make for worse losers once some setbacks occur and 6) the role of stock options in key employee compensation, while a big plus as long as the share price asymptotically approached infinity are likely to be a big minus on motivation and so forth once MSFT's share price takes a serious dive. Disappointment with the reality of NT relative to the promises (and, even worse, expectations) *is* likely to serve as a trigger for a spate of problems for Microsoft (witness the quite negative coverage last week of the delay for NT delivery in pubs like PC Week, Inforworld and Computerworld) but the other factors are at least as important in my downside scenario for Microsoft. An equally possible trigger, however, would be a quarter of disappointing earnings relative to the extremely high expectations on Wall St. Either could easily set of a nasty downward spiral. Will There are 2 Replies. #: 12696 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:58:06 Sb: #12604-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Raymond Chuang 72441,3652 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will, You're going to start a new forum on CIS?? If that happens, I hope it doesn't happen when CIS installs its new forum software or we'll be reading LONG messages from regular posters. It'll have a mighty fast scroll rate, too. ;D Raymond Chuang #: 12786 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 06:10:15 Sb: #12604-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will, You closed with 'That will be enough to send the house of cards tumbling' which is quite a bit stronger than 'tarnishing' or even 'fall from grace'. But as to the stock valuation, I think even MS agrees that it is a bit out of hand. With every quaters report their CFO (Frank Gaudette?) warns that the financial community that they shouldn't expect it to keep up. On the other hand how do you accurately value a software company? Especially MS. No long term debt, an increasing portfolio of patents, a cash cow that only requires minimal care and feeding, ...? An 'adjustment' of MS's stock price may bum out some of their employees, but I think that to a significant portion of them it would largely pass unnoticed (religuous fervor & materialism do not go hand in hand). John #: 12615 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 16:22:32 Sb: #12259-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) >My little Compaq SLT/286 with 2.5MB of RAM has often run 1.3. Kinda slowly, but so is Windows 3.1 on that system. I think my IBM XT-286 (6 whopping MHZ) w/2.5MB ran 1.3 even slowler then yours, but it sure did *ran*, solidly(is that a word?)! The Windows things crashed quite a bit, maybe due to low on memory, and had to swap more then it was designed for. #: 12622 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 17:12:04 Sb: #12439-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 (X) What the f*** does yah mean???? Yeah, or yes I understand, but yah is an abortion of a word, and most akin to an english upper class yah! which I KNOW you don't mean!!!! Please don't use this form of english unless you REALLY mean it! Graham (English thought police) :) There is 1 Reply. #: 12677 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:24:36 Sb: #12622-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) Ah, my 'yah' dost offend thee. It shall forever been, then, yeah, unless a careless slip of the keyboard do betray me. What, praytell, doth the >>english upper class yah!>> mean? I being of the New Mexican lower class woefully untutored in these matters. Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 12708 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 05:17:09 Sb: #12677-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 Well, a real English Gentleman would know that "English" is always capitalised. Jon #: 12820 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 10:43:18 Sb: #12708-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 (X) I thought so, (on 'English'). I felt my correspondent here has some sorta grudge against royals. Not the only one, if so, I suppose. Paul #: 13075 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 03:39:25 Sb: #12820-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 And "slip of the keyboard do betray me". Tut tut, dear me: try "slip of the keyboard betrayeth me". Sounds much more Olde English As She is Writ. :-) Jon #: 12709 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 06:15:28 Sb: #12677-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 I know my response may have been a bit extreme....... :) However, an upper class yah!, really refers to the way that some people say yes. It sounds really horrible and pretentious. Regards, Graham #: 12821 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 10:45:20 Sb: #12709-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) Well I was a bit baffled over your reaction fer sure. I often make little abbrev's in these notes so I don't have to type so much. On some heavy days I've gotten as much as 45 notes in ONE forum, so I hope I can be excused my occasional 'yah' instead of 'yeah' or 'tho' instead of though. I've never heard an upper class British talk other than a few royals on TV/Radio so the yah! is news to me. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 12886 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:00:42 Sb: #12821-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 No offence meant really........ Just a niggly point when you read these messages really late at night. I certainly wouldn't want to put you off commenting on as many threads as possible due to my english criticisms. The more comments the better as far as I am concerned. A good lively conference has to be better than a stagnant one any day! Regards Graham #: 13016 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:43:32 Sb: #12886-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) Actually I wasn't insulted or bothered at all by your comment - more interested really. I did get some private messages saying I *should* have been insulted tho . Goes to show I'd too stupid to know even when I've been offended . Paul #: 12623 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 17:12:10 Sb: #12453-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X) >>When IBM and MS made that 11/89 announcement about Windows for the low end and >>OS/2 for the high end, Microsoft was (a) trying to stop IBM from doing PM Lite >>and (b) about to release Windows 3.0, which for all practical purposes required >>the 4MB they said was the break point at which you'd switch to OS/2. Absolutely!!!!! I wouldn't trust a microsoft promise even if it was written in BillGs blood......... There is 1 Reply. #: 12723 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 10:54:52 Sb: #12623-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) My point was not that Microsoft made promises in the 11/89 joint announcement with IBM that it then broke, but rather that it was unreasonable to take that document at face value, considering the absurdities it contained, and the adversarial relationship of the parties that produced it. #: 12624 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 17:12:16 Sb: #12455-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X) I have to say that as a corporate developer, the delay in NT is likely to cause us to go the OS/2 2.0 route for production. We would LOVE to go NT, but our deliverable date of April 93 forces us to look at OS/2 as a serious deliverable platform. In April 93, OS/2 2.x will be shipping, debugged and supported. In April 93, Windows NT will be on version 1.0 (maybe released!) and will have a load of problems in the real world (Guaranteed.... I'll put $1000 on it!). What does a developer rely on? Microsoft have not been very reliable on their promises in the past! I paid $2400 for an OS/2 2.0 kit from MS and got SHAFTED!!!!! Graham ps. I actually like Win32! (Windows is comparatively crap!) There are 2 Replies. #: 12637 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 19:26:35 Sb: #12624-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) << I actually like Win32! (Windows is comparatively crap!)>> Before you have yourself designated as official "English" police, you might want to reconsider the statement that you made. Something is either "crap" or it is not "crap"; comparatively crap must then be totally different . bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12736 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 17:46:16 Sb: #12637-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Ok, ok, I know I shouldn't have mentioned this..... Graham There are 2 Replies. #: 12778 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:19:11 Sb: #12736-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 Besides which, of course, an English Gentleman never uses words like C....well I can't say it but you know what I mean #: 12796 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 07:45:03 Sb: #12736-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 I apologize for the jab on grammar but could not help it! You set it up so perfectly that I had to reply . bob #: 12726 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 12:31:19 Sb: #12624-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) Graham, My current guess is a Feb date for NT. OTOH I have seen MS start a concerted effort to support and being more responsive to customers. I have seen a big change in the last year. I also see some life in IBM as well but not as dramatic a change so far. Carl #: 12867 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 15:26:24 Sb: #12726-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 >>My current guess is a Feb date for NT. Want to bet?? I'll take a date that is no less than 9 months from the start of the official beta. Actually, 10-12 sounds more like it, but 9's a good safe number for me. Bruce There is 1 Reply. #: 12887 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:00:48 Sb: #12867-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X) >>My current guess is a Feb date for NT. I'd really like to agree, but, April/May seems like the optimistic date for general release. I certainly wouldn't say to my management that projects based in NT beta can be delivered before April/May at the earliest. June/July seems a prudent plan date to me. This would give us the opportunity to be proved totally wrong and pessimistic. Please MS, prove me wrong...... I really would like to be wrong this time..... :) Graham #: 13027 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 17:06:10 Sb: #12887-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) >>I certainly wouldn't say to my management that projects based in NT beta can be delivered before April/May at the earliest. June/July seems a prudent plan date to me. Actually, if you ask me, any date before the first revision/update ships is not prudent!!!! This goes for ANY OS. I can't believe that all of these folks are putting their necks on the line for something that hasn't even gone into beta, much less gone through a significant revision after its become generally available. I thought NT was for mission-critical solutions. Using a 1st release OS for something tells me that the project isn't very mission critical, or that the people are seriously misusing the term. Or that they're not real bright. Bruce There is 1 Reply. #: 13040 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 19:36:44 Sb: #13027-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X) >Using a 1st release OS for something tells me that the project isn't very >mission critical, or that the people are seriously misusing the term. Or >that they're not real bright. But if we were to follow your reasoning, then NO projects would ever get implemented using any new OS! The question that arises in my own environment is whether we develop for a platform (OS/2) that WILL be dropped in the near to medium future by the organisation, or do we bite the bullet now, and develop on the platform for the future? Somebody somewhere has to be a pioneer, and in this case we feel that we can justify pioneering NT in live development. Since the head of all end-user computing for one of the major UK banks is my project sponsor, and he wants to see MS & Windows NT, I think that the choice of NT really isn't such a bad one in the long term. Believe me, I too have certain misgivings about adopting a product in pre-beta for initial development. However, the pre-lim version of NT that we are running is of a fairly stable standard that bodes well for the final result (I know I'll live to regret saying this in 3 mths ). Please bear in mind that the development is only using NT for server products, Windows 3.1 for the client end. What the hell, its good to be pushing the envelope for a change. I did it with OS/2 back in 88/89, so why not NT this time eh? Graham #: 13180 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 19:33:58 Sb: #13040-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 Graham, So long as you folks have contingency plans, I agree it's nice to push the edge. It's fun, too! One thing in your note that I wanted to correct you on: OS/2 will NOT be dropped. It will evolve, sure, but it will not be dropped. IBM hasn't done a wonderful job of communicating this, but I am very sure of this. At least as sure as anyone who's not Lee Reiswig can be. Bruce #: 13067 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 22:57:08 Sb: #12867-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 Bruce, Most Beta programs involve a few to a couple hundred users. NT now has about 20,000 copies out there and it has not even gone into Beta. Thus the Beta when it comes out will be more like a release upgrade than a new product. I suspect that part of the Beta delay is due to feed back from the users. I also think that if MS can not get all of the wrinkles out, that it will do what IBM did. Release the product with restrictions. I think that there is too much riding on NT to delay the release more than 3 months. I think that with the number of users that the bugs will be fixed in the code shipped in the Beta. What remains to be seen are features the miss the first beta. MS will try to get these in by the end of the year, and with the numbers of users it will be easy to quickly wring out the bugs. Thus most of the code will have been tested for 9 months and all of it tested for three months. With a few thousand active users, most bugs should surface. I think that by Feb the code should be as well tested as OS/2 2.0. I agree that it will not be like DOS 5.0 but it should be a reasonably stable system. Carl #: 13129 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 10:53:11 Sb: #13067-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X) Carl, I appreciate your points, but I'd like to remind you that OS/2 had at least as many "beta" testers, and yet there were still nagging bugs in the product. I think you should also remember that this (NT) is an entirely new OS, as OS/2 2.0 essentially was. There's no way that I'm going to believe, no matter how many beta users, that the product will be 100% on day one of shipping. All I was trying to say is that anyone who is betting their company on mission-critical apps built on a new OS is not treating their responsibilities to their company very seriously. I am NOT saying NT will be a poor platform. On the contrary, I think it will do very well and certainly has some marvelous features. I just wouldn't bet something really important on it at this point. Bruce There is 1 Reply. #: 13150 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 14:05:43 Sb: #13129-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X) Bruce, I agree with your sentiments re "mission critical apps" and version .0 of anything. But, if someone were developing a mission critical application right now, and their tests have proved it to be reliable in the current incarnation of NT, what would be so idiodic about using it right now? The same concept goes for OS2, a lot of people are a little less than enthusiastic about its reliability, but if I had a "mission critical" app that was proven to be reliable on it, I would run it. Of course, I wouldn't run anything else not proven at the same time :-) -Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 13203 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 23:22:01 Sb: #13150-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X) >>But, if someone were developing a mission critical application right now, and their tests have proved it to be reliable in the current incarnation of NT, what would be so idiodic about using it right now? Well, I suppose you could go forward carefully. But I'm sure you've seen this as much as I have: no matter how much testing you do, implementations are usually very different from testing. I guess it all depends on the number of users, how easy it is to fall back to the older system, etc. Bruce There is 1 Reply. #: 13250 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 08:47:37 Sb: #13203-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X) My take on this version 1.0 vs 1.1 dilemma is that I would be less worried about a specialized 'mission critical' application, and more worried about a general OS change for a group that is going to be running various different hardware configurations, and all kinds of software applications. The former is less complicated and thus easier to test and prove, while the latter is usually a bit of a nightmare until general use eventually turns up the .x updates. -MarkV #: 12635 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 19:10:15 Sb: #12519-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Ben, I just sort of hoped, I guess, that the quality of the the OS/2 yammering in this forum would exceed the quality of the OS/2 yammering in the OS/2 forums. At least you all haven't reached the same quantity levels here as you have over there. Maybe you could try to top your own records in the OS/2 forums before branching out. Please? -- Jim F. There is 1 Reply. #: 12651 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 01:27:06 Sb: #12635-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736 To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X) James I don't believe that I have insulted you. In message 12519 I believe that you have come fairly close to insulting me. Would you please apologize. --Ben There is 1 Reply. #: 12656 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 06:57:54 Sb: #12651-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Ben, We're all familiar with the litany: MS screwed me over; MS abandoned me; MS can't be trusted; Windows is terrible; OS/2 will save the world. To hear it once is a point of view. To hear it over and over and over and over is yammering. What else would you call it? -- Jim F. There is 1 Reply. #: 12661 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 08:11:08 Sb: #12656-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736 To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X) James >What else would you call it? I would still call it an insult. I wouldn't call that an apology. --Ben There is 1 Reply. #: 12678 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:43:08 Sb: #12661-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Ben, I think you have played too tough of an adversarial role on this forum to now be so thin skinned as to demmand an apology over something like this..... For the sake of comparison, consider what has happened to people over on IBMOS2 when they were critical of OS2. I didn't see many apologies given out there. Now that I mention it, it is very interesting how much more tolerant the MS forums are to criticism. Regards, -Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 12682 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 13:12:43 Sb: #12678-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736 To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X) Mark It is true that this forum is more tolerant then the IBMOS2 forum was through its early history. I however only once (and not to Jim Fergusson) either on the PC Magnet forum or on the IBMOS2 forums was ever more then slightly impolite. I believe that I HAVE been adversarial here to some extent (but mostly just looking for what people have based their opinions on, as this is something which interests me and folks here have been willing to talk about this) but I don't believe that I have been insulting to any one here either. If I have I apologize. But I have been insulted. Not by you of course. And would like an apology. --Ben There are 3 Replies. #: 12684 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 16:22:16 Sb: #12682-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) ben: lest you feel slighted, numerous of us here have been insulted. take the "yah" message to Paul Cassel, I was accused of not spelling correctly, and rather ridiculous statements have been made to & fro. Believe me I can understand how you feel but numerous individuals here are just tired of being asked to defend this or that. With such frustration, anger often ensues. Not trying to defend just expressing how many here feel. bob #: 12687 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 16:31:52 Sb: #12682-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Oh no, you haven't insulted me, and I certainly don't think you need to apologize for anything. If it weren't for provokative statements, this would be a pretty boring forum, and I hope you continue to stir things up when you feel like doing so. My only point was that you shouldn't forget to put your armour on when you do this. You should see the dings in my armour from IBMOS2 and ZIF forums, but I lived to talk about it . BTW, I don't think anyone on this particular tangent of the thread needs to apologise for anything, except perhaps cluttering it up with drivel, but, do you realize that *demanding* an apology makes it less likely you will ever get one? (life is strange sometimes, ain't it?) -Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 12725 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 11:09:43 Sb: #12687-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X) >>I don't think anyone on this particular tangent of the thread needs to apologise for anything, except perhaps cluttering it up with drivel<< Right you are, this thread is for bilge, not drivel. There is 1 Reply. #: 12733 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 13:10:43 Sb: #12725-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X) >Right you are, this thread is for bilge, not drivel. Well, you know..., someone is going to come back from vacation and download a huge thread clearly marked as 'bilge' and see all of our drivel and start hollering at us for causing him/her to waste money on off-topic stuff. I think I will change the subject on my next post to this thread. -MarkV #: 12699 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 19:14:22 Sb: #12682-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Ben, At the risk of dragging this out any further, I'll just say that I'm at a loss to know just what it is you think I should apologize for. You and Mercer Harz have gone on at excruciating length about your hurt feelings about the way big bad Microsoft has done you wrong. The character of these messages, and even the exact wording, is identical to literally hundreds of other messages that I have read in this forum and in the OS/2 forums. I began by asking if you guys ever get tired. Apparently you don't. You have a right to your opinions. You even have the right to express them in this forum (where they are rather out of place IMO.) I have just as much right to characterize those opinions and the manner (and length and repetitiveness) with which you expressed them. In America we don't yet have to apologize for our opinions. You've made your opinion clear, and now I have as well. -- Jim F. There is 1 Reply. #: 12718 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 10:16:28 Sb: #12699-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736 To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X) Jim Well until now my opinions have been about software and companies. Yours have been about people. Now I have one about a person. I don't think I will bother to express it though. --Ben #: 12894 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:48:52 Sb: #12718-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 Hey, Ben. Jim really has a way of setting the tone for the discussions he joins, eh? Why don't you just consider the source, and blow it off. I have. There is 1 Reply. #: 12928 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 02:17:38 Sb: #12894-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 Mercer, Yeah, this discussion had a wonderful, friendly tone before I joined in. As in this message from Mr. Sano: >>Mark >>Funny I agree that trying to run Windows on top of DR-DOS is an utterly >>masochistic thing to try to do. >> >>The only problem is that I feel the same way about trying to run it on >>MS-DOS. >> >>--Ben -- Jim F. #: 12641 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 20:48:10 Sb: #12555-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) Too late the hospital is entering liquidation. I'm going to try to get some of the computer equipment at the court house steps. IMO, if a company is telling you that you need a equipment ug to use their sw they should be working with the IHV's on making sure the known problems are doc'ed in the box, otherwise, total frustration for the end user. However, in IBM's case this time it may have been laziness or studidity or something a little deeper. I don't know. Darren #: 12664 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 09:44:09 Sb: #12443-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) Ben: I have to be skeptical in the extreme that MS is sabotaging others' programs. The vast majority of apps worked just fine under Win 3.1. DR DOS 6 was one of the very few that didn't. It didn't do so due to if not a failing, at least an incompat put there by DRI. MS just declined to "bless" their non-conforming code. I think it's within their right to decline this. OTOH, Lotus is surely a direct competitor to MS, so when problems surfaced with Ami Pro if you're right, MS would ignore those, but they didn't. Instead Win 3.1 now runs all the AP's correctly. I suspect we're gonna be seeing a new generation of non-compatible products. YOu can't blame MS for this any more than you can that publisher over the hill where Sheryl is. Everybody wants their standards to be others'. Paul #: 12665 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 09:46:33 Sb: #12453-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X) Who can look into the minds of what people thought way back then? If you ask MS and IBM they surely remember things quite differently. I question how great a practical threat PM lite ever was, tho. I defend MS's decision to switch from OS/2 to NT as a biz/tech decision. Per my notes to Mercer, I think they could have done it more politically, tho. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 12724 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 10:59:36 Sb: #12665-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 IBM intended PM Lite to be a Windows killer, and Microsoft certainly took that threat seriously, regardless of how toothless it might in reality have been. I'm not sure there was any way for Microsoft to walk away from IBM without screwing over the people who had invested in OS/2. Suppose Microsoft had simply come out and said, "Okay, this OS/2 thing is a dud. Let's give Windows a try." IBM would have sued the hell out of them, and would have had a good chance of winning. Then where would we be today? #: 12826 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 10:50:23 Sb: #12724-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 I'm usure how much MS took PM Lite seriously. I thought the idea funny. OS/2 is lite enough, why lessen it? I do think MS can be manipulated into panicking quite easily and this might be a case. Mercer and I agree that MS could have done more to make those who originally bought into the MS OS/2 SDK and did development whole after MS dropped the project as a bad job. This might have taken the form of extra low cost (or free) support in NT, the full NT development package for those who owned the OS/2 one, and similar programs. MS did little and that's the base of a lot of the anti-MS feeling you hear from developers here. I didn't buy the OS/2 SDK, did no OS/2 development, fairly early on bought into Windows instead, so naturally I don't share this resentment with those who took the OS/2 path. I can understand their feelings, tho. Paul #: 12666 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 09:53:21 Sb: #12464-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will: That's an intriguing angle and one I've been thinking of recently. I'm going on the assumption that MS has very capable people in both the business and technical fields. That they chose to go with NT and drop OS/2, well, if NT doesn't make it and soon, you'll be right and I guess Steve Ballmer will have to eat a floppy disk in your honor . Now I surely don't know about IBM decision process, but I'd be willing to bet that some influential engineer with a mainframe background, *proved* to people at IBM that ethernet was theoretically too unreliable for IBM to relay on. If you examine ether's foundation you'll conclude (if you've never had any practical experience with it) that it has too many opportunities for failure, or at least very poor performance. Token Ring is theoretically the much better performer. That ether truly is better in the field and can be shown such if one tries it, flys in the face of IBM conservative traditions. If the new version of OS/2 2 is really as good as IBM says it will be, and if NT is further delayed, you will be proved right after all. Thanks for keeping me posted on CANOPUS. I think it's a needed forum. Paul #: 12667 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 09:59:07 Sb: #12472-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John: I can't say what a right multiplier might be either. I did once make an effort to determine the off the record computer sales. Altho I'm a very small OEM, all of my sales are off the record and I once wondered if in the aggregate we tiny OEM's added up to a signficant volume. My method was unscientific in the extreme. What I did was to clip what I felt were relavant snips of info from the trades with a mind to compare chip shipments and unit shipments (from the channel) to see the dif. Altho StoreBoard won't ever record my sales, Intel will. Well, I don't remember my numbers, but I found overall chip sales exceeding greatly overall computer unit sales. Some accounting must be done for overseas mfg, but not that much, IMO. I never see IBM hw at small sites, only in great groups at institutions. I guess that's to be expected. Paul #: 12670 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:04:55 Sb: #12473-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John: Well, we gotta see. So far I'm *not* impressed with IBM's OS/2 support and sales. The classic: order the thing with a credit card and and have it shipped to your APO. No go. But we'll see on this one. I slightly disagree about Win being the biggest API other than INT21h. I think it'll soon be bigger and it might even now be. Not that the installed base will exceed DOS someday soon, but rather in apps sales and in push for HW sales. I know that as of now Win software sales exceed DOS ones. Who in the industry really cares if some fella is sticking to his WS 3.31 running on a 6300? What the industry cares about is new sales, not those made in 1986. Right now people are spendin hundreds to buy video adapters optimized for Win, monitors large enough to show more than a few frames, larger disks, memory, and most of all those Win apps. Win is, by this criteria, right now the largest API in the world. Paul #: 12671 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:06:50 Sb: #12475-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 (X) I know of a lot of people who are prepping NT proper apps right now. These will be out at the intro. Sure, there will be a lot of recompiles, but there will also be some native ones too. It will take a lot of time for Win/DOS programmers to get the rhythm of NT's methods, tho. Paul #: 12673 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:08:07 Sb: #12479-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 The last time I went to IBMOS2 was a few months ago. I have no need to visit lately since we've dropped the OS/2 project. I was there quite a bit before commercial release and that's where I got my favorable impression about the people in charge. Paul #: 12675 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:16:18 Sb: #12514-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 Yes, different directions and different experiences. I too was appalled at the Win SDK. Like BI's OWL for C++ I never did get the whole shebang really figured out. Where my differences really lie with you is partly in customer satisfaction. and ISV communications. While MS hasn't been as accessible as, say, Borland for me, it has been way ahead of IBM who seems to be on an entirely different wavelength. First, customer satisfaction: I have *never* visited a site that bought any PS product (if the site's not in the clutches of an IBM mainframer) where that site didn't feel like a sucker almost right after the purchase. This includes fairly large sales. When an IBM mainframer is the IS chief, s/he blocks enough information from the users so they don't know they've been hoodwinked. But when a user's free to compare, they're always sorry they bought IBM. And they're on a dif wave from me. When I attended the rollout for the PS/2, there was this IBM suit showing how the entire thing could be taken apart w/o a screwdriver. The IBM mainframe crowd dutifully oohed and aaahed. I said 'who cares? I already own a screwdriver. How well does it perform and where's the 5 inch drive?'. The suits all frowned. So I'm a bit dif from them and IBM goals, I think. Paul #: 12676 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 10:21:34 Sb: #12515-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 Yah, I hadn't been over there since the split in forum titles. I don't see how one can determine whether the excellence in the fora over at the OS/2 umbrella is due to IBM staffer's extra efforts or the change (if change there be) in IBM itself. What's to determine this? I understand the organizational changes in IBM separating the PS line from the OS line and also Akers' statement that each division stands or falls on its own. This sounds right. It in someways reminds one of the early Phil Eastridge days in Boca. Look where that evenally ended up. And that's my point. Boca got folded back in to Armonk when it started making big bucks. If OS/2 starts doing so, I think the oldsters at IBM will see it as a lever to boost profitablity in the PS line and for the 'good' of IBM generally. We won't know if IBM does a repeat until they do or don't. So let's wait and see. Paul #: 12689 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:13:56 Sb: #12527-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) I don't disagree with anything you said; I was just indulging in a little fantasy. What I consider trivial PC use has exploded over the last four or five years as the cost curve has spiraled down, and I think it has thus become exponentially harder to displace DOS than it would have been circa 1987-88, had the 386 software been ready (mature). #: 12690 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:14:07 Sb: #12528-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) The strange thing about DIAL for me was that it worked (sort of; technically it would function, but the usability was another story) for about three weeks. Then I turned off the computer, went to visit my folks for the weekend, and when I came back and powered up the system, DIAL told me the modem wasn't there any more, even though Crosstalk had no problems at all. Tried different modems, both internal and external, different async cards, etc., all to no avail. This all happened on a Compaq Deskpro/286, supposedly a paragon of IBM compatibility (although once I looked at how the hardware was actually implemented, I had my doubts; lots of things were done differently-enough that I realized Compaq had lifted some pages out of the IBM sales manual on how to lock-in their buyers to Compaq-only upgrades), and one of the systems specifically endorsed by MS for development and DIAL usage. I dropped the whole DIAL service as a result, but was not offered or given a refund, and a letter on the subject went unanswered. So my experience as a "small" user of MS products was definitely contrary to that reported by Paul. I suspect neither of us has seen the full range of behaviours exhibited by MS toward "small" users. #: 12691 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:14:14 Sb: #12541-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) I keep hearing stories like that, and I certainly take you at your word, but I've never encountered IBM reps that acted that way. I *have* done the converse, though; when we were getting totally inappropriate "assistance" from an account team geared toward VM, when we needed MVS answers, I had a chat with the Branch Manager. Of course, he wouldn't admit that the changes in the account team were at the direction of the customer; such decisions were regarded then as purely internal to IBM. However, our account team was changed. The SE wasn't fired, but he was replaced on our account. Of course those were the "bad old days" when you actually got service from your account team. Now my only dealings with the local branch are limited to an occasional PROFS note exchanged on IBMLink. On balance, I like the "new" IBM better; but that's me as an individual. At work, the "old" IBM was a much more responsive company. #: 12692 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:14:24 Sb: #12534-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) Without knowing to whom in IBM your client addressed their question, it's hard for me to frame an appropriate response to your complaint. (I don't work for IBM, and it's hardly my job to defend it, anyway.) However, in my experience if IBM ever gives improper or wrong information to a client which is used as the basis of a buying decision, and is later informed of the fact, the company will allow you to return the merchandise and get a full refund. Letters I have written to the President and/or Chairman of IBM have always gotten prompt attention and action from the responsible division, usually in addition to a direct response from the head office, and have always resulted in my (eventual) satisfaction. This is my experience as an individual, not as part of my "day job." Any company has its share of poorly-informed and poorly-trained individuals. Criticisms like yours do more good when communicated to the powers that be (at any company, not just IBM), rather than to those not in a position to correct the problems. Taking them to task in a public forum can make you feel better, and generate some indirect pressure on the company, but they may not be aware of the specifics that need changing if you don't take the direct approach. My mother taught me that when you have a problem with a company and don't get satisfaction at the "street" level, don't waste time: go right to the top. There are 2 Replies. #: 12702 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 22:14:02 Sb: #12692-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To cut down on all of the jaw jackin' the support request went to the proper area in IBM. The result was just that they were just not interested in anything other than their own hardware. It would be very difficult to correct the situation at this time since the client is liquidating, any letters of complaint wouldn't result in any immediate satification. This attitude may be changing but they have already pissed off the client (a paying customer). I can't see any way of justifing the behavior. Darren #: 12717 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 09:47:56 Sb: #12692-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 BTW, when ever I work on a street level I use a brick and stand around a corner. I always get excellent results. Darren #: 12693 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:14:30 Sb: #12492-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) ALR still sells MicroChannel as well, but they don't publicize the fact much (at all). #: 12697 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:58:10 Sb: #12467-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Raymond Chuang 72441,3652 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will, Boy, IBM better get their Service Packs out the door. Raymond Chuang #: 12774 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:18:50 Sb: #12489-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John, uf ABIOS is 'packed up and shipped out of the way', does this mean it's relocated to a different (virtual) address or just turned off? If the latter doesn't seem a whole lot of point in having it! Andy. There is 1 Reply. #: 12789 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 06:10:34 Sb: #12774-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Andy Champ 100064,2267 Andy, ABIOS and DOS doesn't make a lot of sense, period (why have reentrant BIOS under a non reentrant OS?) but to the exent that they are used by any app or the OS, I beleive both memory managers trap on the reference and swap them back in. Why do I think I don't want to trust this to work a 100% of the time? John #: 12775 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:18:53 Sb: #12513-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 Mercer, how do you reclaim the 64Kb without either relocating it to where DOS apps can't use it or turning it off? #: 12891 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:33:56 Sb: #12775-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Andy Champ 100064,2267 ABIOS is not used under DOS, anyway, so it gets "turned off." Not much point in simply relocating it; since ABIOS isn't used under DOS, its loss is not noticed. #: 12776 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:18:58 Sb: #12510-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 You can't tell us from Apricot? I always knew our corporate image needed some work! Andy. #: 12777 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:19:03 Sb: #12437-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X) >>Basicly, you try a given number (3 to 5 works about as well as any) of times to delegate it to another processor, once it has been accepted by another processor then that processor must finish the task, if you can't delegate it you get to keep it. I can see that'd be OK on CPU bound apps, but what about those that use a lot of disk? With the kind of net we're talking about - where disks are locally connected to CPUs with a fast bus, and the LAN is comparitively slower - remote disk access is a bottleneck and passing apps about could give problems. This is where I thought it would get hard - evaluating the likely disk load of an app., and to which drives it would occur, as well as the CPU and RAM requirements, should really be scheduler inputs. Imagine if you pushed your disk backup program to a remote CPU! Andy. #: 12779 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 04:19:16 Sb: #12511-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 I could agree with you that for specific tasks ASMP (AMP?)is wonderful. Trouble is, it's a bit like putting Expansion Boxes on a 2-stroke motorbike - the engine works wonderfully well under a particular workload, but anything different, you're dead. If you know what you're workload will be, fine, buy ASMP. If not, buy SMP. Now the problem I have is working out what kind of machine we ought to be designing to fit all our customer's requirements - they're just a bit variable! Andy. There is 1 Reply. #: 12795 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 07:41:08 Sb: #12779-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Andy Champ 100064,2267 Andy, >>Expansion Boxes on a 2-stroke motorbike<< Hey if your expansion chamber makes it too peaky, you just get out your rotary files and play with port timing a bit or change the reeds, no problem ;-> John #: 12890 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:33:45 Sb: #12779-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Andy Champ 100064,2267 I don't envy you your decision-making job, but is it truly a case of designing "a" machine to fit all your customers' requirements? Or a range of systems with varying levels of function and capacity? At what points in the business case does SMP provide not only observable benefit to the customer but a positive effect on the bottom line, compared to other (non-SMP) designs capable of fulfilling your customers' requirements? It's no secret that Intel is developing single-chip packages that integrate multiple execution units and cache, with versions integrating video and multiple FP engines to come. I expect SMP to become pervasive, eventually; not in the next few years, though. #: 12874 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 16:40:00 Sb: #12428-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 >I sure know how I'd feel today if MS announced they're dropping Win and NT! Yeah, I know what you mean, I'd be happy to finally see that crapy Windows being history, and this MS ego driven NT disappear too. There is 1 Reply. #: 12898 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 19:08:14 Sb: #12874-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 Bill, re: I'd be happy to finally see that crappy Windows being history, and this MS ego driven NT disappear too. I objected to another member's making comments like this, and he got all upset. Can't you see why it might be just a little annoying to have folks like you come whizzing around here with this kind of trash? What's in it for you? What do you get out of it? -- Jim F. There is 1 Reply. #: 12913 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 21:06:43 Sb: #12898-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Scott R. McKee 76304,723 To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X) Jim The best way to handle someone like Bill Lee is to just ignore them. After awhile, they generally just go away. Scott #: 13012 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:33:41 Sb: #12913-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Scott R. McKee 76304,723 (X) Scott: Likely you're right about ignoring people like Bill Lee and they'll go away, but you gotta wonder why they're so darn defensive on one hand and offensive on the other. Perhaps we'd be if we backed the loser. Paul PS: in other words, how'd you like to be committed to OS/2 on this, the eve of NT? It sure wouldn't do much for my temper. #: 13011 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:31:38 Sb: #12898-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X) Hi Jim: This OS/2 fellas seem to be awfully defensive and quick to jump to insulting or ad hominim arguments. I'd feel the same way if I backed a lame horse in the Kentucky Derby. Paul #: 13262 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:17:08 Sb: #13011-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 (X) >I'd feel the same way if I backed a lame horse in the Kentucky Derby. I don't think I should comment on this. In any case, good luck to you. peace. There is 1 Reply. #: 13296 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 14:15:41 Sb: #13262-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 Yes, Bill. A bit of peace with some measure of goodwill's been missing in this thread lately. Time for all of us to regain some proportion. So from me to you: peace, good luck, and prosperity. Paul #: 13261 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:17:04 Sb: #12898-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X) >Can't you see why it might be just a little annoying to have folks like you come whizzing around here with this kind of trash? > What's in it for you? What do you get out of it? No Jim, whizzing around here, drop some trash and run is definitely not the purpose of my attendance here. I have been around since the sp I alway thought this war thing is silly, and still do. Maybe that was an uncalled for strike back message, and a bit too strong, but by no #: 13007 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:30:30 Sb: #12874-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X) ??? >>MS ego driven NT>> I see NT as the OS of the future. What I was saying was only that I felt some sympathy to those who adopted OS/2 early on, spent time developing for it, and now see the future OS is NT, not it. That's all. Now as I'm getting some info on NetWare 4 I'm beginning to question whether it will be the competitor for NT I thought it'd be. I'm unsure. Unless MS burps badly in NT's implementation you'll either be using is soon or be in another business. Paul #: 12875 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 16:40:03 Sb: #12466-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) >>IBM ships Windows on its low-end PS/1s that ship with less than *8MB* >>memory. >OK. Sounds fair to me! Too bad that IBM bashers would bend the story as IBM's lack of commitment to OS/2 and make it sounds like the end of the world. #: 12983 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:14:48 Sb: #12875-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X) >>Too bad that IBM bashers would bend the story as IBM's lack of commitment to OS/2<< I think the facts speak for themselves. IBM makes a big deal about how OS/2 2.0 is better than DOS or Windows, and claims its minimum memory requirement is 4MB. IBM preinstalls Windows 3.1 on its PS/1s with less than 8MB of RAM. Hardly the end of the world, but far from consistent. There is 1 Reply. #: 13046 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 20:08:56 Sb: #12983-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 >>I think the facts speak for themselves. IBM makes a big deal about how OS/2 2.0 is better than DOS or Windows, and claims its minimum memory requirement is 4MB. IBM preinstalls Windows 3.1 on its PS/1s with less than 8MB of RAM. Hardly the end of the world, but far from consistent. Robert, IBM says the minimum required for OS/2 is 4MB, but that the recommended is 6-8MB. The box should say this, but it doesn't (at least the last time I looked). Microsoft says that the minimum for Windows 3.1 is, what? 1 or 2MB I think. Both companies state minimum requirements that are too low, IMHO. Both products really need about 2x the minimum for good all-around performance. Bruce #: 12876 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 16:40:09 Sb: #12473-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) >When I called, as an individual, to order the WINOS231 beta, the call was answered within 3 rings (it was the infamous IBM NDD) and the disks showed up the next day. No charge. No kidding! And I'd never forget when I called them for the CSD update for 1.3 a few months ago, it arrived within 4 working hours! (well, actually I called late afternoon, and it was in the in basket early next morning.) Are we a Big Blue shop? heck, I don't even have an IBM customer number, and the biggest IBM box we have is a 4 year old 20MHz model 80. I laugh at some of these Staged, full out, continuous, pointless IBM bashing in this thread, gives me a pretty good idea where they're coming from. Did you get the PDK CD also? With what they provided on it for only $15 S&H, I think the bad old days of less then perfect Developer support is history with the "new" IBM! There is 1 Reply. #: 12895 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:53:22 Sb: #12876-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 >I laugh at some of these Staged, full out, continuous, pointless IBM bashing >in this thread, gives me a pretty good idea where they're coming from. Gee, I wonder where you are comming from? Are you, or do you plan to use NT?, or did you just come over here to educate us? BTW, I'm not trying to make you feel unwelcome in any way - I just couldn't help but notice the string of messages you posted, and their theme. -Mark (will this thread ever die? - awful title) #: 13263 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:17:15 Sb: #12895-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X) >Are you, or do you plan to use NT?, or did you just come over here to educate us? The vendor for our mini went out of biz as of Aug 31st. I believe we've considered all possible options for it's replacement, and sorry to say, as of this time, nowhere is NT on the list, due to it's timeframe, and what we saw with the alpha release. (we just don't think it will be ready for primetime anytime soon. Please, no hate mail on this, just our opinion on it. And I do understand the alpha is *not* for eval, but what else can we do today? I believe the next beta drop may be here soon, but I doubted it would change anything.) Certainly I will be keeping an eye on it, who knows what the future brings? While it looks like OS/2 may be involved quite heavily, it will *not* be the only solution for us. You may not believe it, walking away from Windows doesn't always means OS/2 only, and I'm not as blind as you think I am. Please, I wouldn't even dream about "educating" anyone, I don't think I'm qualified to do so. Please see response to JimF for my "excuse" of my temporary loss of control. > BTW, I'm not trying to make you feel unwelcome in any way No problem there, I'll still be lurking from time to time, even after this interesting thread is over with, I promise. Thanx. Peace. #: 12877 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 16:40:20 Sb: #12339-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 >I don't want to lock myself into a system that forces me to a certain brand HW. Are you talking about OS/400, VMS or something? >Most of the PS/2 OS/2 adherents deny the OS works better on IBM HW. It's refreshing to hear from one who not only admits it, but revels in it. Let's see, think I said "If I'm not mistaken, OS/2 is taking advantage of MCA today already" vs your comment about they bending it in someway in the future, so what am I "admitting" to? So NT will take advantage of multi-processor systems, yet it'll run on a sinlge Intel 386-16 PC, any problem with that? Do you want the same performance out of them? Call foul when you find out they're bending OS/2 to run better on their own ISA machines, and crippling it intentionally for other ISA boxes. Bill. Responding with Golden Commpass, OS/2, Compaq (The same machine that I wasted half a day to load NT onto, but wouldn't even work!) #: 12984 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:19:29 Sb: #12877-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X) Bill, if you don't like NT and wish it would go away, why are you wasting your time in this forum? There is 1 Reply. #: 13015 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:41:38 Sb: #12984-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 A lot of people lurk around here hoping we'll drop something about NT they can use in their anti-NT diatribes. To wit: Cassel reports in the NT forum that he's having trouble running (fill it in) with NT. Stuff like that. It's a cheap tactic to bend the truth, but if you backed OS/2, what else have you got ? Paul #: 13013 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:39:08 Sb: #12877-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X) Bill: My concern is less whether OS/2 today is bent toward working with PS/2's and more that I feel it will be (for the corporate good) if it does become a generic success. This isn't a question about and for today, but rather about and concerning should I, an ISV, take the chance that IBM will do this? I think they will and therefore won't bother to develop for this, the potentially closed system of the future. IBM might be sincere in their current attempts to get OS/2 to run on non-Blue hardware. But let's say they do succeed, and in doing so earn significant market share. What'll they do next? Close it of course. That has been the company way for as long as it's been a computer company with any hint of potential competition. The bleatings of the IBM's reformed sheep notwithstanding, I say this is one company that won't change - or at least I'm not betting *MY* company's future on it doing so. Paul #: 12878 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 16:40:29 Sb: #12343-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) <> >I have seen many of these anti-windows statements. Just out of curiosity, what is it that you don't like? I think what I said was something about OS/2's ability as a multi-tasking OS taking advantage of MCA, and Win(yuck), which is on top of DOS, doesn't utilize. I didn't think that would sound too anti-windows. I believe most of the anti-win stuff pops up after folks have experienced with a superior alternative, at this time is OS/2. Looks back to the bad UAE/GPF experiences, the not so hot multi-tasking capabilities, which was okay and the way of life back then, but not to be taken for a sucker anymore, is speaking out now. Really Bob, do you see more anti-win stuff then anti-OS/2 materials? There is 1 Reply. #: 12906 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 20:10:43 Sb: #12878-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 RE: anti-win vs anti-os2 Interesting question that you pose. Given the opportunity to run, my guess is that many comments here are being made by those running both OS2 and NT, so a comparison is natural but most is not anti-OS2 in an inflammatory sense. I have never seen an OS2 (yuch) statement here. Granted there are some here (myself included) who have had their share of hassle with OS2; e.g., can multi-task but cannot use OLE or clipboard (sort of useless to me). BUT, nowhere here have I criticised OS2; have beat upon IBM but what the heck, so is the stock market . I do not use many dos applications but do use many graphic applications in windows. 'nuff said. If you want to blast windows and MS, this is perhaps not the best place to carry out your game plan. If you are trying to start some nasty mail to & fro, then get prepared. bob #: 13264 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:17:21 Sb: #12906-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) >If you want to blast windows and MS, this is perhaps not the best place to carry out your game plan. If you are trying to start some nasty mail to & fro, then get prepared. No no no, not my intension here at all, honest, please see my response to JimF for my lame excuse for the outburst, I certainly didn't expect others would be offended by it. I normally do my blasting in front of live people, I think it's more effective that way. Don't be too disappointed, but I have no game plan here at all. No thanx, I'm not into hate mails. I don't want to go down in history being compared to Brain Bu... well, forgot what's his name. There is 1 Reply. #: 13275 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 11:34:22 Sb: #13264-More bilge from Willy F. Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Bill Lee 76366,656 Bill: I was responding to what appeared to be the tenor of your message, but will take your explanation to heart. Some people like to sort of sneak in, drop a bomb or two & then sneak out. I answered one person's question about IBM vs Ms in what I thought was a reasonable, albeit biased toward my thinking of course, way. No reply! the idiot returned and posted the same GD question several weeks later. We don't need this. I meant nothing nasty or personal in my remarks, but as my dear old dad used to say, "when you walk in the pumpkin fields and look a tad suspicious, you're asking for an ass full of buckshot!" bob #: 13303 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 15:16:44 Sb: Setup of NT Fm: Jimmy Truong 75430,345 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 Hi, Does anyone know what is wrong when NT doesnot boot with low memory error message? I installed DOS2NT to 386DX with 16 MB. Why did it not have enough memory? Thanks, Jimmy #: 12748 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 19:39:33 Sb: Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 To: all I am not a developer and am not interested in the Windows NT Beta program. But I am looking to purchase a new 486-based computer soon, and would like to know what is the minimum recommended hardware configuration for Windows NT. Is a 486DX running on the ISA bus acceptable? Is the ISA bus okay if supplemented with a couple of the new VESA local bus slots? Or is either the EISA bus or the MicroChannel bus considered essential? If anyone can answer this question, thank you! There is 1 Reply. #: 12808 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 09:56:41 Sb: #12748-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 I'd recommend a 486DX/33 with 16MB of RAM and a 200MB hard disk as a reasonable minimum platform for NT, OS/2, or x86-based Unix. You could try to get by with only 8MB RAM, but going all the way to 16 only costs an extra $200. Given the modest price difference between a 486DX/33 and a 486DX2/50 or DX/50, the faster chips are probably a better deal. I wouldn't buy a 486DX2/66 quite yet, those systems are still a bit too new for my conservative taste. I would look for a system with a 120-pin P5 upgrade socket. ISA bus is fine. The bus is seldom a bottleneck, and there's still no local bus standard so anything you buy today will almost certainly be an obsolete orphan in a year or so. EISA is okay, but local bus is probably going to kill it. MCA is a waste of money unless you're locked into IBM's vision of computing, in which case it's still a waste of money but at least you'll have someone to blame. #: 12936 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 04:38:47 Sb: #12808-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 PMJI, but did you see the announcement of the Pentium chip this AM? Intel's CEO ... Grove was on the tube on the Business Day version of CNN and he had one there announcing the name. I guess P5 was deemed as legally unprotectable as xxx86 is and thus they came up with a specific trade name for the critter. It was a gold color which I hope has nothing to do with the perceived value and thus the street price for the thing. Just some Trivia.. #: 13056 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 21:30:21 Sb: #12808-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 Bob, Thanks very much for your suggestions. You pretty much echoed what I had concluded myself, except that I think the local bus option is one which should probably be seriously considered. As I understand it, there is a standard, the VESA "VL-bus", which a couple of motherboard vendors are already producing. This bus--as I understand it--is 32 bits wide and runs at 33 MHz, so will not be available on the 50 MHz motherboards. I expect to see a deluge of ads for ISA machines with 2 or 3 VL-bus slots, in the near future. Barry There is 1 Reply. #: 13091 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 07:05:23 Sb: #13056-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 Barry: Actually VESA-like slots are available on dx50 motherboards (micronics for example). these slots are basically video only in my opinion. When intel and a few others bring out the PCI standard, then harddrive bus cards will be available and very effective. All should show about the time of spring comdex (just guessing here ). bob #: 13173 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 18:31:54 Sb: #13091-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, You mention Micronics like you are very familier, I have a Micronics EISA2 486dx33, am I restricted to Micronics proprietry video boards in the local bus slot, do you know? There is 1 Reply. #: 13196 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:48:32 Sb: #13173-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 (X) The micronics board was built pre-Vesa; that is, the local slot does not exactly meet VESA specs. As such, I would use a micronics local video card. At least give them a ring & see what your options are. bob #: 13126 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 10:32:41 Sb: #13056-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 The problem is that there are too many contending and incompatible local bus would-be standards. A lot of companies are doing VESA VL-bus boards, but Intel dropped out of that group and proposed its own standard, which is incompatible with VL-bus (and also, since it does not define the actual connectors, incomplete). There's at least one more incompatible local bus currently shipping. #: 13298 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 14:42:54 Sb: #12808-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 The VESA VL-Bus local bus standard is finalized and systems are now shipping that use this bus (e.g. Gateway). Many companies (e.g. ATI) are now or will soon be shipping products for VL-Bus. The Intel PCI local-bus standard is not finalized, and products are not expected for a year or so. Some feel that this is the technically superior local bus (in that VL-bus is optimized for video, but PCI is more general-purpose), but it is going to lag VL-Bus in the market by a year, so VL-Bus may dominate. I think most people expect VL-Bus to be with us for a few years, at least. There's a detailed article on this in a recent issue of Byte, if anyone wants more in-depth coverage. --Brad There is 1 Reply. #: 13317 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 18:35:49 Sb: #13298-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Brad Hines 76520,3314 (X) Brad: You are correct about VESA being in advance of the PCI architecture but the latter will make a major differnce in the way a harddrive and a chip talk together. maybe a year but maybe less . bob #: 12918 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 21:55:53 Sb: #12748-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 Berry, I'd say that the straight ISA bus would work just fine for you if you arn't doing anything super heavy. The minimum hardware configuration hsn't been set yet (I could be wrong) but I'd say get as big a hard drive and as much memory as you pocket can afford. I can't say much about the local bus stuff just yet. Darren #: 13054 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 21:23:33 Sb: #12918-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 Darren, thanks very much for your help. I'll check in here occasionally to see how Windows NT is coming along, but I guess it'll be at least six months before we (the general public) will see it in the stores. Barry #: 13188 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:29:10 Sb: #13054-Min h/w config for NT? Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140 Happy to help out. Stick around and keep an open mind about your options. Hopefully we will see street legal NT before six months. Darren #: 12750 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 20:20:22 Sb: PC Week - Speak Out Fm: Brian Proffit [PCW Labs] 75300,1466 To: Sysop (X) As you may have noticed, I began a new column in PC Week this week called Speak Out. It is intended to be devoted to our Corporate Lab Partners and readers -- NOT vendors. Nevertheless, it has been suggested that there is a pro-Windows/anti-OS/2 bias in the publication. To allow full discussion of this topic, I am prepared to offer both IBM and Microsoft the opportunity to write one column to present their position. The column will be edited only for size, grammar, clarity, etc. The writing will not be censored, other than natural things such as offensive language. The participant will have full opportunity to approve the final text before it is published. The column should be approximately 650 words in length. If Microsoft would like to participate, please select the appropriate author and have them contact me. #: 12899 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 19:09:06 Sb: #12750-PC Week - Speak Out Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 To: Brian Proffit [PCW Labs] 75300,1466 (X) Hi Brian, I have passed this on to the appropriate parties here at Microsoft and they will be in touch with you if they are interested in doing this. Thanks, steve #: 13328 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 23:17:37 Sb: #12750-PC Week - Speak Out Fm: Brian Moura 76702,1337 To: Brian Proffit [PCW Labs] 75300,1466 A pro-Windows bias in PC Week? The folks who ran Will Zachmann's column for years? That's pretty amusing...... As far as I can see, PC Week has seemed pretty impartial on this one. #: 12574 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 10:39:11 Sb: NT vs OS/2 Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X) Will, I guess we will agree to disagree. However, I specialize in internationalization & communications. In both areas I see NT as the better and more cost effective choice. For a long time I felt that Win was little more than a toy but I have come around. Look at the impact of Unicode. Currently OS/2 is selling better in Europe than here. But even with localize versions of the system, the international business community needs polylingual systems. I feel that many businesses will buy NT even if it is over kill just to get Unicode support. Unicode is also a boon to software developers who can develop a single product that is easy to localize and can be validated on a single system. Remember that most software sales are overseas. The corporate users is not only looking for the desktop as you mentioned but they are looking for a something that will also run the companies standard applications on all of the 286 systems that they have not fully depreciated. This is especially true in lucrative markets like Japan. The corporations also need large servers. They need more than OS/2 will offer but they do not like the AIX/UNIX environment. For now many of them are buying AS/400 systems. I see NT as a product that is more targeted to the UNIX-AS/400 market than as an OS/2 replacement. The set of different Win platforms give the user a scalable family of systems that can run the same software. [More] There are 2 Replies. #: 12575 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 10:39:23 Sb: #12574-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X) [Continued] OS/2 will provide a better solution for the midrange user, but can IBM convince the users to work in a very different environment just for those users? The other problem is Win32s. Will OS/2 support the faster Windows applications? You are right in that companies like Lotus are producing OS/2 apps that are not just ports of Win code but exploit the OS/2 advantages. I expect the see a number of them by the 1st Q 1993. But I still do not see a lot of commercial software commitments for OS/2 products. I think that the key to OS/2 success is for IBM to convince developers that they should develop for the OS/2 environment. I think that IBM's policy of being closed mouthed about the future of OS/2 is telling developers that 1) IBM is being secretive, 2) They IBM has no idea where it is going, or 3) They don't what to let the bad news out. Neither of these options is very comforting. I think that both MS & IBM are rapidly changing there attitude as support of developers. But I think that if IBM wants to succeed that it will have to open up more and let us know what is going on. Carl #: 13209 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 01:57:25 Sb: #12575-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Hans Kamutzki 100015,3007 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 Carl, >>The other problem is Win32s. on a IBM technical seminar in germany in september there was something like a statement (not an announcemnet I think) that OS/2 2.o will implement a Win32s (subset?) support in OS/2-win. hka #: 12597 S2/General Discussion 16-Oct-92 13:04:56 Sb: #12574-NT vs OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X) Carl, No doubt that UNICODE is important, but before a wide range of developers use it, it'll have to be supported in the 'other' Windows. John There is 1 Reply. #: 12694 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 18:14:35 Sb: #12597-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) One aspect of Unicode (or any multibyte character set) that seems to get short shrift in most public discussions to which I've been privy is the doubling or tripling of virtual memory required to use it. There are still some niggling little implementation details and standards work that remains to be done on Unicode, although most of the major items have been dealt with. IMHO, this is yet another bleeding edge technology that will probably take another three or four years to ripen into something easily digestible. There is 1 Reply. #: 12744 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 18:26:42 Sb: #12694-NT vs OS/2 Fm: John Hall 70750,2341 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 A straight ASCII string translated into UNICODE will double in size. Now I understand that string storeage/manipulation forms a higher percentage of most programs than many people understand, but I fail to see how UNICODE will double virtual memory requirements, let alone tripple them. If you are useing DBCS, the delta increase is smaller for string storeage and may be offset by simpler/smaller code to deal with the strings. #: 12892 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:34:10 Sb: #12744-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: John Hall 70750,2341 (X) First, according to the presentations I've seen, Unicode is not *only* a sixteen-bit code. My understanding is that Unicode was designed to accomodate "wide" multi-byte characters, with three- and four-byte code requirements already defined or in the process of being defined. To some, and for very good reasons, two bytes is not enough address space. OK; to be more specific, to the extent that a program manipulates text data using Unicode, the amount of storage required to hold those data will vary in direct proportion to the size of the character, guaranteed at this time to be a minimum of double the amount of storage required when using ASCII. Of course, there will also be a speed hit and potentially greater paging demands. Single users probably won't notice, though. There is 1 Reply. #: 12893 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 18:45:56 Sb: #12892-NT vs OS/2 Fm: John Hall 70750,2341 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 I have only seen UNICODE mentioned as 16bit -- thats 32K characters. As for a speed hit -- not compared to DBCS. Unicode is faster than DBCS because you don't have to test a char to see if it is a char the first byte of a two byte char. #: 13031 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 17:21:31 Sb: #12893-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: John Hall 70750,2341 (X) See my reply to msg 13008 from Bruce Ramsey, about multi-byte Unicode. No, the speed hit was not envisioned against another 16-bit character, but against 8-bit ASCII, or any other 8-bit code. Like I said, most users won't notice the hit involved in manipulating/moving twice as much data, but in some areas it may be quite noticeable. #: 13008 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:30:58 Sb: #12892-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 (X) Hi Mercer - With all due respect to whoever was presenting, I checked with the unicode gurus here, and there will be no 3&4 byte unicode characters. That is essential to the whole unicode design. Notice that there are currently ~35K characters (code points) assigned. That means there are still ~29k free for future expansion, which is expected to fullfill all future needs. The present known languages of the world are already covered in the current ~35K. (2^16 = 64k, and there is no parity bit) Someone might have been thinking about compatibility with the OS/2 Double Byte Character Set, or Multi Byte Character Set. Apparently the Japanese and Chinese versions of Windows NT may provide compatibilities with these other standards which do allow 3 & 4 byte characters Another posibility is that someone was thinking of TWO unicode characters, which taken together form one 'glyph' I.e. 'A' followed by umlaut. This could be misconstrued as a 4 byte character, but it is not >> ...To some, and for very good reasons, two bytes is not enough address space... The majority of those involved in the unicode effort (~95% from the info I have) believe that unicode does a good job representing the known languages of the world in the currently allocated ~35K characters The ones who disagree don't agree that unicode does a good _enough_ job of representing some of the subtle cultural nuances of their character set. Is this the sort of objection you were referring to, or did you mean something else? Side note to interested forum readers: There is a two volume unicode reference set from Addison Wesley that can be ordered from any bookstore. See page 17 of volume 2 for an example of how unicode uses multiple unicode characters to represent a character in some far eastern languages I agree with you that it will take some time for unicode to be fully utilized within the industry. On the other hand, Windows [More] There are 3 Replies. #: 13009 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:31:05 Sb: #13008-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X) [Continued] NT itself uses unicode internally to represent/manipulate strings, so with the October release of Windows NT, people have in Windows NT itself an example of unicode software However, since we only have the unicode-only version of Windows NT, there is no ASCII-only version people could use to compare speed, virutal memory, etc characteristics of unicode versus ASCII. So, it would be interesting to know if an ASCII-only version of Windows NT took half the virtual memory or less than the unicode version, but unfortunately we won't be able to measure that. Perhaps in the future this can be done with some apps But comparisons like this will be difficult, because to be fair in such a comparison, DBCS and other multi-byte versions of whatever software were to be compared should also be on the chart. And finding an OS that supports unicode and ASCII and DBCS and other multi-byte schemes may take a while Bruce #: 13032 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 17:21:44 Sb: #13008-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X) First, thanks for your reply, Bruce. It was certainly informative. Anyway, the presenter told us that the ISO Unicode standard that was approved in May 1992 actually incorporated two specifications, one of which is 16-bit Unicode (presumably the Unicode implemented by MS), and the other is a multi-byte spec (based on a previous ISO draft, I believe), which had to be added to garner some required support for the standard. From the presentation, I got the idea that both specs qualify for the Unicode label. Perhaps I misheard (likely) or he was wrong (less likely; he is Share's representative to both the ANSI and ISO committees). I hope I haven't trashed the foils; if so, I'll have to wait to refresh my memory until I get the proceedings microfiche in a month or two. However, whether Unicode expands to more than 16 bits is a side issue to my original point, which is that short shrift is usually given to the downside aspects of multi-byte character sets. You're right; most users will probably have only their subjective impressions about any speed hit involved in moving or manipulating twice as much data, rather than definitive comparison test results. Most people won't even notice a hit, except that text data will consume twice the space. But users whose tasks perform lots of I/O or other operations on text data will probably notice the difference as compared with single-byte operation. #: 13140 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 12:21:29 Sb: #13032-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 (X) Hi Mercer - When you get the proceedings, if you could please send me the reference, or post it here, I would appreciate it. I'm always looking to learn more, and given the source from whom you heard about >2byte unicode, it does sound like I have some more to learn :) I think you're right, compared to single-byte software most users won't see the hit. I also didn't/don't mean to ignore your original point: there is a price for using two bytes instead of one. Users of existing multi-byte systems have already paid that price, so users of existing multi-byte systems that convert to unicode won't pay an additional price. They may even benefit, if their existing system uses more than 2 bytes, or if their existing system has to do checks to see which characters are multi-byte characters Bruce There is 1 Reply. #: 13171 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 18:13:16 Sb: #13140-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X) The proceedings haven't shown yet, but I found some prior references to what I was remembering, and my sloppy terminology has got the better of me in my earlier messages. Here's what I found: In a letter to the Share membership dated 10 June 1992, Edwin Hart, Share's representative to ANSI X3L2, reports on the "Status of the ISO/IEC 10646-1 Universal Multi-Octet Coded Character Set (UCS)" among other things. ISO 10646-1 Draft International Standard-2 (DIS-2) was approved as an international standard by the ballot that ended on 1 June 1992. The approval was made possible by a merger between ISO 10646-1 and Unicode in which Unicode (essentially, but not completely, without change) becomes one of two ISO Universal Coded Character Sets (UCS). UCS-2, also known as the Base Multilingual Plane, is the two-byte ISO character set incorporating Unicode. However, ISO 10646-1 also specifies UCS-4, the four-byte form of the character set. From foils used by Mr. Hart in an earlier presentation to the membership, I am given to understand that as a result of the merger, Unicode 1.1 (and beyond) will "fully align" with ISO 10646-1; i.e., that the Unicode Consortium will modify the Unicode spec to make it conform to the UCS-2 spec (at the least) of ISO 10646-1. Since the Unicode gurus at MS seem adamant about only 16-bit support, I think I'm hearing you say that MS is not going to support ISO 10646-1 (at least, not all of it). If that's so, here's some food for thought: neither ISO 10646-1 DIS-1 nor Unicode, standing alone, were able to win the status of a de jure international standard; it took the merger of the two in DIS-2 in order to meet enough of the objections of the various countries (and the private interests represented on their national committees) so that the standard could be approved. The four-byte code is critically necessary to certain groups. Why not support the ISO standard? I had assumed that MS would do so. There is 1 Reply. #: 13205 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 23:24:41 Sb: #13171-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 Mercer, The four byte code is more than any one will use. The three byte implementations are mostly designed to include lots of dead and obscure languages like Mayan. I doubt that we will see more than 16 bit (Unicode) implementations in the commercial world. Yes the three byte or multi-plane implementation might be used to some types of literary publishing. For example Japanese has about 50,000 Kanji but most communication never exceeds a couple of thousand. Carl #: 13319 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 19:41:05 Sb: #13205-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 Carl, 8-bit ASCII is sufficient to most purposes -- for me, today. The 16-bit Unicode will undoubtedly handle lots of cases, but it is not sufficient to the needs of many. German scholars unsuccessfully tried to get 2,000 additional accented Latin characters coded in UCS-2 last year. Though they lost that round, the issue is not dead and serves to point out that space in the 16-bit character plane has already become a precious commodity, a limit that will become more, not less, apparent over time. Major computer hardware and software companies participated actively in the ISO standardization process, and are committed to delivering ISO-compliant products (many governments set ISO compliance requirements). I think it's inevitable that NT (and OS/2, AIX, Taligent, **ix, NextStep, Solaris, MVS, VMS, etc. ad infinitum), and application development and supporting products (compilers, tools, runtimes, DLLs, etc.), will need to support the full ISO standard, both UCS-2 and UCS-4. Sooner or later. Nobody was going to need anything faster than a 286/386/486 either. Remember? #: 13310 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 17:25:25 Sb: #13171-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 Hi Mercer - Thanks for an info-filled response! As I indicated, I'm not a unicode guru, so I passed the info on to the unicode folks at MS (one of whom was a central participant in the merger between Unicode and ISO 10646), and got back still more info (see below), which hopefully will clarify things still further Bruce In 1992 the working goup SC2\WG2 of ISO IEC\JTC1 accepted a new standard ISO 10646 which provides for 16 bit and 31 bit characters in a way that the 16 bit characters are numerically equal to the 31 bit characters. (The 32nd bit is reserved) Over the course of 1991, ISO and Unicode cooperated in having the ISO 10646 16-bit subset, called UCS-2 or Basic Multilingual Plane, merged with the Unicode Standard then about to be published The merged 16-bit code space followed Unicode's code layout, but with additional characters added from prior drafts of 10646 and additional requests by member organizations of ISO In a few cases, most of them already documented in Unicode Standard Version 1.0 vols I and II, ISO 10646 will differ from Unicode Version 1.0. The Unicode Consortium is is publishing a complete set of these "Errata" as Unicode Version 1.01. This will make Unicode a proper subset of ISO 10646. (Microsoft will support Unicode 1.01, in a manner that satisfies the Conformance clause in the Unicode Standard) The ISO standard document is in final editing, to reflect about 5,500 characters added beyond Unicode 1.0 (Most of them Korean Hangul). Unicode's upcoming Version 1.1 will track these additions, and fulfill the promise of a complete merger between Uniicode and ISO 10646's Basic Multilingual Plane (UCS-2) The difference between UCS-4 (the 31 bit form) and UCS-2 is at this point only the width of the character, as there are NO character codes assigned that are not in the 16-bit UCS-2 subset Either form is equivalent as far as ISO standards conformance is concerned. None of the major computer and software companies that form the Unicode consortium has expressed a desire or [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 13311 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 17:25:34 Sb: #13310-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X) [Continued] requirement to support a 4 byte character set. Several of these companies have have already announced upcoming products which support the merged 16-bit standard, as have many non-member companies The world is ready for a 16-bit Universal Character Set, and both ISO and Unicode did the right thing by merging their widely different approaches into a common standard. Having a single standard, which is both de-jure and de-facto is the key to success The Unicode Standard Version 1.0, vols. I and II can be obtained in good computer bookstores or through Addison Wesley or from the Consortium The Unicode Standard Version 1.01 can be obtained directly from the Unicode Consortium at Unicode Inc. 1965 Charleston Road Mountain View, CA 94043 (415)-961-4189 (415)-966-1637 FAX unicode-inc@hq.m4.metaphor.com #: 13340 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 04:58:03 Sb: #13140-NT vs OS/2 Fm: Pete Fisher 76506,3134 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 Bruce, - excuse me for jumping in as I scan thru the WINNT messages I grabbed via TAPCIS, but I'm assuming you're with Microsoft and can maybe help me by answering a question or two. Altho I'm an amateur when it comes to development, I bought the pre-release WIN NT CD and have a lot of Windows 3.1 applications and development tools. I use a Compaq 386/20 with DOS 5.0, Win 3.1, QEMM 6.01, and Stacker 2.0. The largest un-unsed area on my physical, non-stacked disks (aside from dual removable Bernoulli cartridges) is about 2 - 2.5 MEG on C: (where my DOS boot sector resides) and 1.5 or so on D:, which is the second 60 MEG hard drive unit in my box and almost totally devoted to a stacked volume. I recently bought an NEC CDR-74, external CD-ROM drive. I ordered the pre-release NT out of curiosity and to test out the usability of my new CD-ROM unit; I didn't realize NT was a full-fledged operating system, and I'm confused about the installation requirements. What do I do to create a second boot sector, and can I do it with such limited unstacked hard disk space? Is there a way to leave the vast majority of NT running from the CD and install a minimum of files top hard disk? Should I wait for the next "pre-release" - ? I use a broad array of THE MOST RECENT VERSIONS of MS & other Windows software; should I expect to be able to run 'em under NT, and what would be the advantages... aside from satisfying a little curiosity? thanks, Pete #: 13093 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 07:06:25 Sb: #13008-NT vs OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 Bruce, >>Another posibility is that someone was thinking of TWO unicode characters, which taken together form one 'glyph' I.e. 'A' followed by umlaut. This could be misconstrued as a 4 byte character, but it is not<< This may be technically correct, but putting on my 'rubber meets the road hat' it is a 4 byte character. It would be treated as a single character by the user. Or even as a technical point, it would be displayed in one character cell. John #: 12963 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 08:50:15 Sb: Ati vs ??? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Bob, I was looking in PC Week magazine. Maybe you should be looking at the cards from Numner Nine. The #9GXe. It has from 1 to 2 Mb Vram and 1 Mb DRAM. And it offers 37.7 million WinMarks. Art #: 12977 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 09:55:29 Sb: #12963-Ati vs ??? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I know the card. Also hits the old bank account big time . Thought about it actually. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12988 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:37:10 Sb: #12977-Ati vs ??? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <. Thought about it actually.>> What I saw was that the #9 was $499 and the ATI was $599. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 13019 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 15:00:43 Sb: #12988-Ati vs ??? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Big trouble here. maybe i should look again . bob #: 13039 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 19:36:13 Sb: #12963-Ati vs ??? Fm: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art - I'm not familiar with this particular card, and don't get PC Week. Is this generally an SVGA unit? What is the maximum resolution/colors/scan? How well did it perform under DOS? Similar performance hit to the S3 units? Sorry to grill you here, but enquiring minds want to know. :-) Thanks - wally There is 1 Reply. #: 13088 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 06:24:27 Sb: #13039-Ati vs ??? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52 Wally: Video cards are getting to be pretty wild in a lot of ways. The crest of popularity of the S3 chip I think is waining. They are awful in dos and have a lot of hardware compatibility problems (know this first hand). Other alternatives are available and relatively inexpensive. For a long while I was using the galaxy 2000 because of 32K colors at 800. Just got too slow. The leading contenders right now are ATI (if they can ever put together decent drivers) and the TI chip based systems. the card Art is talking about has gotten very good reviews but I thought it was over $1000. Just to show you how strange things are, when I put in teh ATI graphics ultra (really cheap right now), the only problem that I thought I had was with powerpoint. Not true. Could not run sytos + which really irritated the hell out of me. Turns out that it has to be in text mode & not graphics. Moral here: we have to be careful of complex interactions between systems & video cards. This is critical to me since today I am collapsing 3 harddrives onto a 1.1 gigabyte drive. Not the time for inability to see my premier tape backup system. bob #: 13131 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 11:05:28 Sb: #13088-Ati vs ??? Fm: Wim Bonner 72561,3135 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) I'm running Sytos+ on a machine with an ATI Ultra (1 meg) and it runs in graphics mode. Don't know what else may be different though. Wim There is 1 Reply. #: 13197 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:48:39 Sb: #13131-Ati vs ??? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Wim Bonner 72561,3135 Funny thing. Am now running total scsi & sytos + works fine. EMM386 does not. Oh well, from one problem to another . Thanks for the info. bob #: 13139 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 12:17:12 Sb: #13088-Ati vs ??? Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) What drivers are you using with yout ATI Graphics Ultra? On the ATITECH forum, ATI said that it would not release NT drivers until NT was in general release. (Unless they were only referring to the new Graphics Pro, but I dont think so. There are 2 Replies. #: 13191 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:33:38 Sb: #13139-Ati vs ??? Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 (X) Michael: I think MS has committed to supporting ATI cards in the general release. Of course the drivers that ATI writes will be faster. I don't expect ATI to write their NT drivers from scratch, they will take Microsoft's final code and modify it to support their cards special features/enhancements. Carlen There is 1 Reply. #: 13195 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:47:54 Sb: #13191-Ati vs ??? Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 Looks like the ATI cards will not be supported in the October release :-< They just posted the October hardware list. Issie #: 13198 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:48:46 Sb: #13139-Ati vs ??? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 (X) I am using drivers downloaded from microsoft and dated mid-summer (june or july -- don't remember which ). bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13229 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 05:05:36 Sb: #13198-Ati vs ??? Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Thanks for the info. I hope to be getting both a new system with the VLB version of the ATI Graphics Pro and the 2nd release of the NT PDK in the next couple of weeks. I suppose I'm in for lots of configuration "fun". #: 13265 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:47:15 Sb: #13229-Ati vs ??? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 (X) Either "fun" or great anxiety . Good luck! bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13345 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 05:55:15 Sb: #13265-Ati vs ??? Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Oh well, I wont see either product for 2 or 3 weeks and I get an extra hour of sleep this weekend. I should be ready(?) #: 12652 S2/General Discussion 17-Oct-92 01:48:41 Sb: Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 To: All I'd like to ask a few questions to anyone who can answer: Can anyone give me a fairly precise comparison of WinNT vs. OS/2 for the average end-user? What are the HW requirements? What can/will WinNT do that OS/2 cannot and what can/will OS/2 do that WinNT cannot? I've heard lots of rumors: WinNT will require 100 Mb of disk space and 16 Mb of Ram, WinNT will require 55 Mb of disk space and 8 Mb of RAM... ...WinNT will only run the top 100 Dos and Windows apps.... etc, etc. What is the real story? I have a 486-33 ISA system with 8Mb of RAM, 2 IDE hard drives totalling 453 Mb of disk space, a Diamond Speedstar w/1 Mb, and an NEC 4FG monitor. Will I have to add anything to this system in order to run WinNT? Right now, I'm running OS/2 (no boos, please!). Will it be possible to run WinNT and OS/2 together? Possibly on seperate partitions? There are 3 Replies. #: 12720 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 10:47:48 Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X) For the *average* end user, both OS/2 and NT are overkill. Anyone who's happy with DOS, Windows, or OS/2 won't need to consider NT for quite a while. #: 12903 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 19:45:47 Sb: #12720-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 What I meant by "average end-user" was how does Windows NT compare with OS/2 on a computer say, at home, rather than connected to a network? From what I've read, it sounds like Windows NT really shines when connected to a network, not necessarily on a stand-alone computer. #: 12985 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:28:25 Sb: #12903-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X) NT's biggest advantages for a single user with a standalone system would probably be the file system (NTFS), with 32-character names, built-in caching, and transaction tracking (unfortunately *no* UPS or RAID support, which I think is a big mistake on Microsoft's part); better multitasking and memory protection; and the ability to run NT apps. The biggest disadvantage is likely to be reduced DOS and Win16 compatibility compared with Win16 or OS/2, but until NT is actually released it'll be impossible to judge that. There is 1 Reply. #: 13010 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 13:31:10 Sb: #12985-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 Hi Robert - UPS support is in the Windows NT package, you don't need LAN Manager for Windows NT to get UPS support Bruce #: 13121 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 10:18:45 Sb: #13010-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X) I'm glad to hear that basic NT will have UPS support. I'd like to see RAID support as well, though the combination of transaction tracking and UPS monitoring will provide a lot better foundation for data integrity than FAT volumes. #: 13037 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 19:26:44 Sb: #12903-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 If you use it for any length of time, it grows on you, and you find little things that you hadn't considered at first. I liked NT so well I bought copies and installed it on my home computers. The first thing that hit me at home is that, unlike windows, after the kids were on the computer all day, I got on and my desktop wasn't trashed. Not a change that will move the world, but nice. I have a lot of things in my startup folder. In Windows I had to wait until everything loaded before I could start working. Not now. I'd been talking for years about neting the home machines. With NT, pop in the card, throw on a cable, and bingo, instant network. I'm waiting to see if the next version supports non-scsi cd-rom, or if I need to buy scsi cd-rom. In any case I'm trashing Dos and Windows on my home machines altogether. This is the future... I only hope that no one has bought this jibberish about NT only being for servers, and charging $600 for NT. That would be a mistake. I have NT running on an 386sx/16 with 8 meg and a 100 meg hard drive. My machine is a 468 with 16 meg but only has a 120 meg drive that has NT, the NT SDK, Win 3.1, the 3.1 SDK, C\C++ 7.0, and all my other programs with 10 meg free. IBM's contention that NT has much greater hardware requirements than OS/2 is hogwash. #: 13124 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 10:23:43 Sb: #13037-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521 >>$600 for NT Since MS has said list price will be under $500, it's safe to assume that street price will be no more than $300, and upgrades from Win16 will likely be even cheaper. It's also safe to assume that MS will price NT aggressively against whatever they see as its competition, which is to say that it's hard to imagine they'd cede market share to OS/2 rather than lower their prices. I'm surprised to hear you're happy with NT on a 386SX/16 with 8MB. I tried running it on my 386/40 with 8MB RAM and it was slow and unhappy. There is 1 Reply. #: 13135 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 11:45:24 Sb: #13124-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X) Bob, >>I'm surprised to hear you're happy with NT on a 386SX/16 with 8MB.<< It just goes to show that some folks are easier to please ;-> John #: 13274 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 11:29:35 Sb: #13124-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 I didn't say I was happy with it on a 386sx, only that it will run. After using a 486/50 at work, and my 486/33 at home, I'm not happy with any GUI environment on a 386sx, and I've had Windows, OS/2, and NT on that machine. As an example, my daughter did a 30+ page cookbook filled with graphics for school. On our 8ppm laser printer, the 386sx\16 took over an hour to print the document from Windows. My 486dx\33 took 5 minutes. NT didn't seem any slower running Windows programs on that machine than OS/2 did, although it's been a while since I had OS/2 on it, and I didn't do any tests. #: 12727 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 12:31:26 Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X) Raymond, It is the preliminary version of NT that should have 12MB of RAM if you want to do development including running the debugging tools. It is NT + swap files + C/C++ & SDK that takes just under 100 MB of hard disk. You should be able to run the beta on an 8MB machine. I run both NT & OS/2 on the same machine. There are problems that can be circumvented but I hope that the problem is fixed on the NT beta. Carl #: 12902 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 19:41:52 Sb: #12727-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 You run them both? Okay, great! So, how do they compare with each other. What are the good points and bad points of each? Thanks for the reply, Raymond S. Swaim #: 13068 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 22:57:16 Sb: #12902-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 Raymond, All in all I must agree that OS/2 does DOS better than DOS or NT. We will have to wait to see what the Win 3.1 support looks like but so far it is better to run regular windows that OS/2 for Winapps. But NT is not a direct competitor to OS/2. It is targeted as a super UNIX that uses the Windows GUI API extended to 32 bits and enhanced. If you want a desk top system that runs multiple DOS applications that OS/2 is your choice. If you want a super system that competes with AS/400s & Tandems or a high power users station then NT is your answer. If you want a system to support multinational companies then NT is your choice. Carl #: 13174 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 18:45:01 Sb: #13068-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X) > If you want a desk top system that runs multiple DOS applications > that OS/2 is your choice. If you want a super system that competes > with AS/400s & Tandems or a high power users station then NT is your > answer. If you want a system to support multinational companies then > NT is your choice. If it doesn't run multiple DOS apps very well then I can only imagine the success it will have. That's exactly what killed the previous versions of OS/2. As for running on AS/400s and multinational support, IBM is reportedly working on that as well. I believe that they are planning to demostrate OS/2 running on an AS/400 at Comdex this Fall. The fact that these features aren't out yet doesn't concern me very much--Win NT isn't out yet either. Raymond S. Swaim There is 1 Reply. #: 13204 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 23:24:34 Sb: #13174-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 Raymond, OS/2 2.0 has some improvements over DOS. I think that NT will look to support DOS programs but not to do a better job than DOS. After all if what you want is a DOS switcher then you should probably buy OS/2. Some DOS programs will also require special NT drivers to run under NT. But if IBM plans to improve OS/2 then they will have to go the same route. After all with features like C2 security and not x86 support some accommodations will have to be made for special DOS apps. Carl #: 13285 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 13:21:18 Sb: #13204-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Shannon Hill 75430,446 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 I agree with what you have said. DOS is an old and outdated operating syste it's time we moved onto something better. It's nice to have DOS support in WINNT so that some of those cheap programs will run, but you have to draw the line somewhere!! I want an operating system that will utilize the full power of my computer and will allow me to do sophisticated stuff, not an operating system that brings me back to the days of DOS and those cruddy memory restrictions. It's time us DOS users move on with our lives and stop living in those ancient days. I want an 32/64-bit open OS that will compete with UNIX and the like, NOT a good DOS compatible do nothing OS. There is 1 Reply. #: 13292 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 13:58:34 Sb: #13285-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Shannon Hill 75430,446 To: Shannon Hill 75430,446 (X) I have also noticed little mention of UNIX in all of these discussions. I read an article which mentioned IBM was using some of USL's UNIX de developers to help IBM develop the new version of OS/2. I think the real war will be between Microsoft and USL (and variants), especially on high-end systems (486,Alpha, etc..). USL's new version of UNIX will be marketed towards Windows and OS/2 users. So which OS is better, UNIX or WIN NT? Some have predicted the death of UNIX others have predicted it's long due bloom into the PC market. 1993 will be a very interesting year, no doubt about it!! Will it be OSF/1, OS/2, DOS 6.0, Windows NT, USL UNIX, SCO UNIX? What about hardware? We can't forget about that can we. Soon there will be the Intel P5 and DEC's ALPHA. ALPHA is a 64-bit chip, when and what will bebe the first real 64-bit OS? I forgot to mention DEC's VMS in the OS portion. Will PC's become more like workstations? Will workstations become more like PC's? Will the PC in your office also be the departmental server?? Wow, what a year 1993 will be!! :-) #: 13320 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 20:33:54 Sb: #13174-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Jim Bohannon 72561,2033 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X) > If it doesn't run multiple DOS apps very well then I can only imagine the > success it will have. That's exactly what killed the previous versions of > OS/2. Actually I am not sure how important it is for NT to run multiple DOS apps. Most users who would even consider NT are probably already running Windows apps. The only DOS application I run at this point is OzCis for using Compuserve. Everything else I own has been converted to Windows apps. The inability to run multiple DOS apps killed the early versions of OS/2 because there weren't many OS/2 applications available at the time. This is NOT true for NT because of the large variety of Windows apps available. There is 1 Reply. #: 13331 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 02:56:12 Sb: #13320-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345 To: Jim Bohannon 72561,2033 Jim, I agree. I am down to my last couple of DOS apps. I only use Magellan because NDW doesn't have 'zip' and 'unzip' capability yet. Of course TAPCIS is still a DOS app. That's about it for me. -- Jim F. #: 13271 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 11:16:58 Sb: #13068-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Tim Clark 71220,1776 To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 Carl and Raymond....I'm not a tester or user of either OS/2 or Win NT..just monitoring what's happening. But I take some exception with what Carl says... I use my PC heavily for business applications and I long for a real operating system WITH wide application support in its native (i.e., fast, full-featured) mode. I lose a lot of time (and occasionly, work) with protection faults, printing requirements, etc. Multi-threading would be a material benefit, and being able to network PC's in small environments with minimum fuss will be increasingly valuable to the _average business user._ I just don't see OS/2 getting the application support (or native networking support?) that NT is likely to garner, once out. This, coupled with the inevitable truth that 486 machines with 16megs will be commodities in 6 months, tells me that at lot of average folks will prefer and use NT. "Super UNIX" implies suitable for only a small priesthood of users, or for downsized strategic apps. Tim #: 12745 S2/General Discussion 18-Oct-92 18:46:44 Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Hall 70750,2341 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X) > I'd like to ask a few questions to anyone who can answer I'm the MS OS/2->Windows porting expert so I'll give it a try. > Can anyone give me a fairly precise comparison of WinNT vs. OS/2 for the average end-user? What are the HW requirements? What can/will WinNT do that OS/2 cannot and what can/will OS/2 do that WinNT cannot? OS/2 looks like OS/2 and Windows NT looks like Windows. Windows NT has built in security, you will need to log on. That might be useful if you let your family use your system. They can have their own files and not trash yours (requries NTFS file system). Finally, a busy program on Windows NT (hourglass) will not freeze your system ala OS/2 or Windows 3.x. You can also start dos, os/2 char mode, windows 3.x or windows nt programs transparently from the command line. That is for the average user. HW requirements are difficult to judge without knowing what the person wants to run on it. Your system will run Windows NT just fine. If you want to run multiple Windows programs under OS/2 you are going to start running into problems -- especially if you are starting them in individual VDM's. [The memory overhead for OS/2 to run a Windows 3.x app is staggering compared to that required by Windows NT.] In general, Windows NT can do anything OS/2 can do but many people [other than minor notes above] won't notice or use the extra things that Windows NT can do. SMP, for example, won't mean much to you. The last thing concerns the hearts and minds of developers. OS/2 has their vocal backers, but the majority of investment is heading Windows NT's way. I know ont tool vendor who is now selling significantly more copies of their product for Windows NT than they sell for OS/2. A lot of companies aren't renouncing their OS/2 plans, but the development resources from those projects are being directed elsewhere. BTW: no I won't get into a shouting match on this paragraph. You can believe me or not, and time will tell. #: 12971 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 09:28:41 Sb: #12745-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 To: John Hall 70750,2341 >>In general, Windows NT can do anything OS/2 can do but many people [other than minor notes above] won't notice or use the extra things that Windows NT can do. SMP, for example, won't mean much to you. How about a list, here?? Bruce #: 12916 S2/General Discussion 19-Oct-92 21:35:55 Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 If you want a somewhat biased opionion, but they won't say so, then there is a file over in the IBOSUPPORT forum called "YOS2TX.ZIP". They have other "falvors" of the file, but this one is simple text and is readable under most systems. Now, I don't support their position. It is simply their "comparison" of the systems. It is nice reading; even if you don't agree with the points. (Boy, talk about a biased, slanted, etc. comparison!) They do address some of the points that Microsoft was supposidly telling the world. I haven't seen the articles that they are making reference to. However, if you take it for what it is -- a rebuttal then there is some truth in the article. #: 12990 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:41:28 Sb: #12916-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X) Al (and others), I am a physician, not a computer industry person, and certainly not an IBM (or MS) employee. I do run OS/2 2.0 on my home computer, and I am here to learn more about NT. I am aghast by the "religious" fervor seen sometimes on both sides, but pleased that people recently have been at least semi-cordial to each other. My guess, as an outsider, is that NT and OS/2 will both succeed, in somewhat overlapping niches, and that neither IBM nor MS needs to worry about being put out of business by the other. What I'm replying to, here, is your note about IBM's file comparing NT and OS/2, which states that it is a rebuttal to information promulgated by MS which IBM felt was untrue. You noted <> Seriously, I learn a LOT when reasonably mutually respectful "opponents" disagree and muster well-thought-out arguments to prove their points. If you, or others on this forum, feel that this article was interesting but incorrect or slanted, I would be very interested and grateful, for my own study of these products, to learn how. I'm not inviting "flames," here, but truly, I'd be very interested to hear how folks on this forum disagreed with this paper. I think that mutually respectful dialog is a great way to learn and to examine issues. Any specific things that seemed incorrect or slanted? Thanks in advance! Charles There are 3 Replies. #: 12992 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 10:50:15 Sb: #12990-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 IBM's WHYOS2.DOC is about as biased as any of the political spin doctors' comments on their candidates performance in the debates. To boil down IBM's major criticisms of Windows: NT isn't shipping. (Duh.) Some people think NT will need 12MB RAM. (Big deal if true--most people running a 32-bit OS will have at least 16MB of RAM, whether they're running OS/2, NT, SCO Unix, NextStep ... 4MB of RAM now costs $100.) People aren't really using Windows. (Pull the other one.) Windows apps aren't selling all that well. (Thanks.) Windows is slower and has heavier hardware requirements than OS/2. (Hey, I've only got two legs.) #: 13181 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 19:49:00 Sb: #12992-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X) Robert, Thanks for the reply. I appreciate being able to learn from NT-knowledgeable folks. Though this particular mini-thread seems to be as much about OS/2 as NT... <> I appreciate your impatience with so obvious a point, but I think the reason they're a bit frustrated with NT being compared to OS/2 is that a _currently_ available OS is being compared with an OS still being "fine-tuned," and which may be quite different than expected when finally released. After all, Bill Gates predicted OS/2 1.0 would take over the world when released, once, but it clearly didn't. I think the OS/2 folks feel that it's a little unfair to use present tense in reference to NT, because it isn't really out yet, and they could as well be talking about a future version of OS/2 which isn't out yet. I can see, though, how you might find this a silly point from your point of view. <> I agree, not a big problem. I understood, perhaps incorrectly, that NT would require even more RAM (16, maybe), and perhaps 100 MB or so disk space. If that's not true, it might be a more reasonable system for single users than I had been led to believe. <> Again, this seems silly, but I got a copy of their document, and what it really says is documented as follows: "Windows has been an impressive sales success with Microsoft claiming to have shipped 10 million copies. However, the independent consultant groups, Creative Strategies and IDC, estimate that only 55% or 30% (respectively) of Windows licenses are in use. Windows magazine has also questioned Microsoft's number and estimated the number of copies of Windows in real use at about 4.5 million (... October 1992, Page 16) Any of these independent estimates reveal 5% or less of the close to 100 million installed base of PCs are using an installed copy of Windows, far from being a standard." [continued in the reply] There is 1 Reply. #: 13182 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 19:49:21 Sb: #13181-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 [continued from message number 13181] I don't hear IBM denying that Windows has been a terrific success, but saying that if one looks at what real people are doing with their computers, that it's a smaller relative fraction than some of the quoted figures imply, and that this has some significance if one suggests that Windows is such a "standard" that no other OS or GUI could compete. I have no notion of the reliability of these numbers, and I would be very interested if you or others dispute them. <> I didn't find this exactly in the IBM doc . What they did say was that _NT_ has larger hardware requirements, and that at least for some apps, partly due to the HPFS file system, OS/2 will be faster than regular Windows, and will be more protected. How about a question you didn't address? I have heard it claimed that OS/2 will run more Windows apps than Windows 3.1! Can this be true? The claim is that Windows 3.1 won't run a number of Windows 3.0 apps, and, if I've remembered this correctly, won't run any pre-3.0 apps, (won't run real mode) whereas OS/2 will (even though the "real mode" apps wind up with "protect mode" from OS/2). And that if you simply add up the number of _current_ Windows apps that will run on each system, OS/2 actually runs more of them, and is therefore more compatible with Windows than Windows... Given that there are very few native 3.1 apps out yet, and that OS/2 will have 3.1 compatibility in a couple of months or so, this sounds like a fair claim! Have I misunderstood something? Cordially, Charles There are 2 Replies. #: 13221 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 04:00:41 Sb: #13182-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 Hi, I am not an industry analyst or anything but it seems to me that an important point that is missed is that when people try to figure out how many copies of windows are actually used a criteria is how many registered apps. have been sold. For example if 20M copies of windows are out there via sales and h/w with win bundled etc., but only 5M (spreadsheets+word_processors+whatever)/(2+whatever) are out there then the implication is that 75% of win is unused. This, in my opinion, misses the fact that even today individuals and business users illegally copy applications. People will pay 80 bucks for an operating environment that they use every day and want documentation. A 300 or 400 dollar app. that they don't use the full power of...they will hack around (for free) without docs. Why isn't piracy acknowledged for the threat that it is, and why isn't it recognized as skewing dos/win/os/2 figures? 1. I am wrong and it isn't significant (likely, analysts analyze). 2. People are stupid (perhaps, e.g. Bush could be re-elected!). 3. A head in the sand conspiracy (O. Stone comment please ). Re 3.1 native apps: they are there, more are coming, by the time os/2 is 3.1 compliant excel & winword etc. will be win 4.0 compliant. In other words os/2 will forever be playing catchup with win apps., it's bad enough waiting for an excel 4.0 filter for pm 4.0 without waiting for os/2 to catchup with the latest win revision. Facts are facts but statistics can obscure the truth, regardless of the fact that os/2 has some technological triumphs users are demanding win_apps! The people have spoken. Pete. There are 2 Replies. #: 13244 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 07:55:03 Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 >> by the time os/2 >> is 3.1 compliant excel & winword etc. will be win 4.0 compliant What is win 4.0 and why do you think it will be released by December? There is 1 Reply. #: 13260 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 09:48:50 Sb: #13244-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 Microsoft says that Cairo will go into beta next year and not ship until 1994. I assume Chicago will come after rather than before. We'll see if and when IBM makes OS/2 a better Windows than Windows 3.1--perhaps in December, perhaps later, perhaps not until 3.1 is obsolete. No one knows yet. #: 13259 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 09:43:35 Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 In addition to the Windows users who are pirating apps, there are also a lot of people who just use Windows as a task swapper/ multitasker for their DOS apps. #: 13267 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:59:27 Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174 To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 (X) Peter, I agree with you that piracy could dramatically differ from the official numbers, but I don't know how anyone can tell exactly how piracy influences the relative sales or use of the competeing products. I suspect it will simply be an unknown that is anybody's guess. What do you think? Charles There is 1 Reply. #: 13330 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 02:41:26 Sb: #13267-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 I think that piracy sucks. I also think that there is more win-piracy than os/2 piracy, I could be wrong 'cos I am a small sample (of one). In my narrow experience I know of a lot more win-users than os/2 users. Pete. #: 13348 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 05:57:38 Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 Peter, >>Why isn't piracy acknowledged for the threat that it is, and why isn't it recognized as skewing dos/win/os/2 figures?<< Becuase it is a 'constant'. The piracy percentage for both OS's is probably within a point or two of each other, so it really makes no difference if you are trying to compare market shares. John #: 13258 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 09:41:49 Sb: #13182-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 IBM's WHYOS2.DOC purports to counter Microsoft's claim that Windows 3.1 is faster and leaner than OS/2. In fact, Windows 3.1 *is* faster and leaner than OS/2 unless you're multitasking (not simply swapping) several DOS apps (not Windows apps). That was the passage I was referring to as implying that Windows is slower and has heavier hardware requirements than OS/2. IBM's claim that OS/2 offers better compatibility with Windows apps than Windows 3.1 is similarly bogus. When I upgraded from Windows 3.0 to 3.1, all my apps still worked fine. I haven't heard of many people sticking with 3.0 due to compatibility problems with 3.1. #: 13268 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 10:59:51 Sb: #13258-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174 To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 Robert, <> Truly, I didn't come here to start a fight, but to learn, and I won't push this further if you don't care to respond, but you didn't really address my question, which seems to be simply a matter of facts: is it so, or are they mistaken. Let me repeat a claim I have heard before: The claim is that Windows 3.1 won't run a number of Windows 3.0 apps, and, if I've remembered this correctly, won't run any pre-3.0 apps, (won't run real mode) whereas OS/2 will (even though the "real mode" apps wind up with "protect mode" from OS/2). And that if you simply add up the number of _current_ Windows apps [very few of which currently being used are 3.1] that will run on each system, OS/2 actually runs more of them, and is therefore more compatible with Windows than Windows... Given that there are very few native 3.1 apps out yet, and that OS/2 will have 3.1 compatibility in a couple of months or so, this sounds like a fair claim! Have I misunderstood something? I might add that what I have heard about NT is that it would be even more true. NT, I am told, is more compatible in that it would be easier to port a Windows app to NT than OS/2, but _less_ compatible in that most Windows apps won't run on NT at all unless they are at minimum re-compiled, requiring two versions of each app. Whereas OS/2 runs Windows apps without a recompile, while giving the advantages of protect mode. Again, I'm an amateur, here, and if I've misunderstood or gotten something wrong, please correct me! Charles There is 1 Reply. #: 13314 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 17:53:45 Sb: #13268-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 Hi Charles - >> ...NT, I am told, is more compatible in that it would be easier to port a Windows app to NT than OS/2, but _less_ compatible in that most Windows apps won't run on NT at all unless they are at minimum re-compiled, requiring two versions of each app... 16-bit apps for Windows 3.x don't need to be recompiled to run on Windows NT. Windows NT has an emulation subsystem that runs the same binaries that run on Windows 3.x on MS-DOS For example, many of us are running on the October beta of Windows NT 16-bit apps such as Excel, Word for Windows, and others And, yes, porting a 16-bit app for Windows to Windows NT is straightforward Bruce #: 13302 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 15:10:37 Sb: #13181-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Carl Vincent 74146,2512 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 >>>>>>Any of these independent estimates reveal 5% or less of the close to 100 million installed base of PCs are using an installed copy of Windows, far from being a standard. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Windows 3.x may not be a standard, but it seems to me that there are a lot of hardware (video primarily) folks tuning their products for Windows users, and the November issue of Windows magazine and several recent issues of the weeklys are saying that Windows versions of the most popular applications are starting to outsell their DOS cousins. If users are not buying Windows then they must be stealing it, throwing all the numbers into the copyright protected trashcan icon. #: 13059 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 21:42:27 Sb: #12990-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 Charles, I personally believe that there is a place in life for both operating systems. I was only commenting about the tone of the article. But, perhaps, that is their right. It is after all a rebuttal to what IBM believes is untruths about OS/2. I would appreciate if someone could find the articles that were mentioned. I believe in reading both sides. However, the tone of that article is rather ruthless. You should check it out. It does have some intresting points. Some points are definately IBM tooting its horn. Some are true. However, by all means download and read the article. If you can't find it then let me know and I'll send you a copy. (unmodified). #: 13060 S2/General Discussion 20-Oct-92 22:02:21 Sb: #12990-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Charles Dort 73117,2174 One more thing, Charles, I am a "computer professional". I have been using OS/2 since version 1.0 of the operating system and beta copies of Microsoft's OS/2 1.1. That was many years ago and a large amount of grief. Using both systems (OS/2 for one client, Windows NT for another) I can judge the two systems side by side. Technically, Windows NT is a much more stable system. It has a larger compatability to Windows then IBM does. (And even IBM agrees that Windows has the largest base of GUI software for the PC platform.) Windows NT is much more secure than OS/2. OS/2 tends to crash if you look at it sideways (in my opinion). All that it takes is some errant PM program to die in a strange way and the workplace shell keyboard locks up. The mouse goes dead. There is no way short of rebooting the system of regaining control. This is primary due to a design consideration which Microsoft insisted upon back in version 1.1 (the dreaded single-system-queue). That is not to say that Microsoft was totally at fault about OS/2. IBM wanted the GUI change to GPI. Microsoft caved in to the pressure. OS/2 would have much more software if they kept the windows GUI. In short, these are simple observations from an old timer professional. I am sorry if you disagree with my personal comment. That is only my impression as I read the article. Form your own opinons about it. Become educated and get a copy. Its free for the download. There are 2 Replies. #: 13089 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 07:02:08 Sb: #13060-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 >> Technically, Windows NT is a much more stable system. It has a larger compatability to Windows then IBM does. << What exactly do you mean by that? NT has major problems running just about *any* shrink-wrapped Windows software and the October release still has some big problems. On the other hand, I am running Photostyler with a Microtek MSF-600Z scanner (and it's *DOS* driver) under WIN-OS/2 flawlessly (once I figured out I needed to disable DMA in the driver.) I can scan big pictures in a background thread while running IEF 5.0 in the foreground. >> All that it takes is some errant PM program to die in a strange way and the workplace shell keyboard locks up. The mouse goes dead. There is no way short of rebooting the system of regaining control. << Well, *I* regain control by pressing control-escape and waiting about ten seconds when that happens. The system then offers to kill the errant task for me. There is 1 Reply. #: 13097 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 07:15:51 Sb: #13089-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Dave 75300,3712 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 Have you received your October release yet? (It sounds like you did since you said the October release still has big problems). What kind of problems? Thanks, -->Dave #: 13187 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:23:21 Sb: #13089-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X) Try this: 1. Run the IPMD debugger. 2. Have it debug a PM application which uses a DLL. The DLL has some initialization and termination code procedure. 3. Before you run the application, set a breakpoint in the DLL initialization sequence. 4. Step once over the main entry sequence. You will end up in the DLL initialization sequence. So far, so good. 5. Now QUIT the application. 6. IPMD freqs out and locks up. 7. PM freqs out and locks up. 8. Your entire workstation freqs out and pressing the Ctrl-ESC will do nothing. You can press it as many times as you wish and wait as long as you wish. The only solution is to press Ctrl-Alt-Del and reboot the workstation. THAT IS NOT A STABLE OPERATING SYSTEM if it allows a single program, IPMD, to totally lockup the operating system to the point that it must be reloaded. There is 1 Reply. #: 13243 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 07:54:57 Sb: #13187-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 >> Your entire workstation freqs out and pressing the Ctrl-ESC will do nothing. You can press it as many times as you wish and wait as long as you wish. << Did you try setting RUNWORKPLACE=CMD.EXE and running IPMD from the command line to debug your DLL's?? #: 13341 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 05:25:14 Sb: #13243-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X) Sorry, my application being debugged is PM based. The example which I gave was the only one which fails EACH and EVERY time. (It was like forgetting to set flip/swap on the CVP debugger and using CTRL-ESC to switch back to PM from debugging the PM application's window message procedure. Sure death for OS/2 1.30.) As I stated it was the only one which failed consistently. We must reboot the workstations from 15 to 20 times a day due to other lockup conditions of OS/2. It dies strangely if you try to use WPS to drag a directory to the shredder -- sometimes --. It dies if you try to issue the command "del *.*" and as it prompts for "are you sure?" then all that the keyboard does is beep -- sometimes --. It is just too flakey to trust to "mission critical" applications. We can not run our company on it. We tried. Were back on Windows and MSDOS with great success. #: 13349 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 05:57:43 Sb: #13187-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 Al, >>THAT IS NOT A STABLE OPERATING SYSTEM<< Crashing an OS from a debugger is not a real good benchmark for stability. One could probably set IOPL=NO and avoid the problem (but not be able run the debugger). That is essentially equivalent to saying an OS is unstable is a third party device driver can crash it. Certain software has to be 'trusted' whether it has earned that trust or not. John #: 13273 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 11:29:00 Sb: #13089-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521 To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X) NT runs ALL my Windows programs without a problem. How do you know so much about the October NT? None of our people have gotten it yet. Do you have a special arrangment with Microsoft? (Would seem odd since you seem to be an OS/2 fan) Or are you taking someone at IBM's word for it? #: 13094 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 07:06:33 Sb: #13060-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 Al, Your comment about the single input queue is valid up to a point. If the system that has a PM app crash doesn't implement a watch dog timer, it is hosed. If it does have a watchdog timer you get to get it back after a period (a longer period than one would expect, and I more than once hit the reset button just as I was getting the non-responding app pop-up, I eventually learned to control my finger). I do disagree, completely, on your stability and compatibility points. I have much more trouble with NT. But thats what I would expect at this stage of development, and it isn't a criticism. I do expect that NT will be more 'reliable' at release, but that will come at a compatibility cost. OS/2 suffers reliability pains because it allows for more slack (sometimes I think too much, but the user can control their exposure). NT architecturally doesn't allow for this slack. You pays your money you takes your choice. John #: 13190 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:33:35 Sb: #13094-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) Ok, I'll accept your disagreement with my statements about stability and compatability. Things will improve for both operating systems in the future. However, Windows NT has some very basic design considerations in place which are missing from OS/2. I am speaking of the security system. I have designed too many OSs in the past to know that security must be designed in from the onset. It is a total b..ch to attempt to add security to an existing operating system. People have learned to code to the levels of the system which are not secure. When you place fences (security) at these levels the designs do not work. The droppings of dead programs are left to clutter up the works. (Some programmers just assume that the function calls WILL work. When the do not then they simply abort and do not do the proper cleanup of any data allocated from shared storage. PM manages everything in shared storage.) At each stage of the developement, security and (by assumption integrity) must be considered. OS/2 has none of this. Windows NT does. If the Windows NT system is properly installed and properly secured, programs, programmers, and users will not be in a position to "take the whole system down". If you insist upon running your work at the "Administrator" user, then you deserve what you get -- an unsecure system like OS/2. At any rate, these are only my opinions. Take them for what they are worth. (I know, that an 75 cents will by a cup of coffee -- inflation). There is 1 Reply. #: 13236 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 06:15:48 Sb: #13190-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 Al, I have absolutely no disagreement with your points on security. From a purely marketing perspective, however, I think the compatibility cost will out way the perceived gains for a large number of users. Not that I don't think that this would be short-sighted on their part. But on the other hand is full C2 (let alone any B level) security overkill in a lot of commercial applications? Could be. Time will tell for sure. John #: 13315 S2/General Discussion 22-Oct-92 18:17:09 Sb: #13190-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X) Hi Al - >> ...If you insist upon running your work at the "Administrator" user, then you deserve what you get -- an unsecure system ... ... I hope you don't mind a clarification on this point, perhaps I'm being too picky, if so, I apologize Even if someone chooses to run always signed on with Administrator powers, that doesn't throw out absolutely all of the security in Windows NT. Some system processes run under system authority, which is different from Administrator authority So, if the user logged on as Administrator starts an app, that app will run in a process that has an associated security token with Administrator priviliges. If that app then does some errant thing that tries to destroy a process or data area that requires system authority to touch/modify, the errant app will not be permitted to the damage. So, the system protects itself from errant apps even that are run by Administrators In some cases, auditing may be enabled, and even though the user has gotten into a bad habit of logging on using an Administrator account, their activities will be audited. This can be viewed as part of security. I'm using the term bad habit loosely - perhaps the user defined a new account that they plan to use daily, and an adminsitrative error was made on the account, making it a member of the Administrators group Bruce #: 13183 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 19:49:47 Sb: #13060-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X) Al, Thanks for the cordial reply! I have been only an interested amateur since 1968, when I handed my first small deck of punch-cards to a 360 operator to run my first Fortran program for me, in a college Calculus class. I wound up so fascinated with computers that I forgot about the Calculus (and didn't do so well as I might have...) and spent a lot of time learning about the machines, and programming, etc. Sometimes I almost wish I had gone into the field, especially when hassling with insurance companies, etc, in my own field... I wish I knew what to make of the fact that different people, so far as I can see, honest and well-intentioned, make different observations about the relative stability of these OSs. You have had bad experiences with OS/2's stability, but I have had great success, especially compared with regular Windows (I have never used NT, which is why I've come here to try to learn a little). I've heard of people crashing OS/2 and giving up, and I've heard of people talking about how their machines were virtually unusable with Windows because of crashes, and now with OS/2, absolute protection. I don't know. I'll be glad when NT is truly released, because even a beta program is different than simply having a new computer program released and loaded on anybody's machine. Anyway, no need to be <> I learn a lot from disagreements! What I was asking for was certainly not an apology, but some insight as to how you reached your conclusions. I appreciate the << simple observations from an old timer professional>> and hope you will share more of them! Thanks again, Charles #: 13151 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 14:24:01 Sb: #12916-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X) My company is evaulating Windows NT and OS/2 for a specialized embedded application. IBM has posted a rather comically biased comparison, YOS2TX.ZIP, in the OS2SUP forum. It references three Microsoft documents I was not aware of: o "A Guide to Evaluating Microsoft Windows Operating System Version 3.1 for The PC Desktop With Comparisons to OS/2 2.0" o "Microsoft Windows NT Operating System - A <- I really need this! Technical Comparison With OS/2 2.0" o "Microsoft Windows or OS/2 2.0" Does anyone know where I can find these? Time is of the essence. There are 2 Replies. #: 13167 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 17:15:49 Sb: #13151-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Dan Zemke 73230,1543 To: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 (X) I too would love to be able to read these. Assuming IBM isn't fibbing in public about them being MS documents, how about someone from MS uploading them here to CIS. Dan #: 13192 S2/General Discussion 21-Oct-92 20:34:56 Sb: #13151-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 (X) Sorry, I too am looking for the documents. If you find them then please let me know. Thanks. #: 13358 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 07:55:12 Sb: #12916-Win NT vs. OS/2 Fm: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 Text here #: 13357 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 07:20:46 Sb: Shipping!!! Fm: Alex Wong 72360,511 To: ALL Guys, Good news! (I hope that no one tell me they've already know!) I called Microsoft to confirm my address yesterday and they told me that the new Oct. release of the WIN32 SDK started shipping on Wednesday. They are shipping about 1000-2000 package a day and there are about 20,000 of us out there, so wait patiently. But the good new is... It is coming!!!!!! :) Alex Wong There is 1 Reply. #: 13361 S2/General Discussion 23-Oct-92 08:42:59 Sb: #13357-Shipping!!! Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Alex Wong 72360,511 That is good news indeed. -MarkV #: 12569 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 09:37:40 Sb: NT install Fm: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 To: sysop (X) Regarding my other message about the 0x69 error. i changed scsi cards and all is well. i'm now using a bustek that has ncr chips on it. it's running great!!! #: 12577 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 11:09:20 Sb: #12524-Installation Questions Fm: Jerry Fath 75506,456 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X) Has MS released the promised driver for the 376, or are you runnind in WD emulation mode? Thanks for the reply, glad to hear there's hope. I'll let you know if I pick up any further tips. Jerry Fath There is 1 Reply. #: 12578 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:11:19 Sb: #12577-Installation Questions Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: Jerry Fath 75506,456 (X) Jerry When MS replied to my original cry for help they didn't metion a driver for the 376 so i presume they don't have it yet. When I set up my HD I low level formated it after setting the heads & sectors per the specs for the UltraStor 24F (16 heads/63 sectors) That turned out to be drive type 30 in my EISA setup. Then i partioned the first 500 megs with FDISK and high level formated those with FORMAT. The leftover part was partitioned and formated with UTIL - thats the partition i had to remove to allow NT to find its way. NT is on the D: drive. Runs OK but still haven't figured out how to get the lost cylinders back so not sure this will work long term. Good luck!! Keith #: 12586 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:33:54 Sb: #12296-Fatal error F002 Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Bill Slade 76107,427 (X) Bill, 0xF002 indicates some form of hardware problem, usually RAM. A possible cause would be a parity error in your RAM somewhere. I would recommend trying to run at a slower speed to see if that has any effect. You might also try swapping RAM chips to see if the error is in the chips. If the chips are all good, the error may be in the supporting hardware. I hope this helps, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12588 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:35:22 Sb: NCR 3450 and NT Install Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 To: Irven Davies [CompuSys] 73500,2746 The best approach at this point would be to make sure that the machine is configured correctly to install NT. Give the good folks at NCR a call to make sure that the hardware is configured correctly. I would tell you how but I am not familiar enough with that model to be certain of my advice. Alternatively, wait for the next release which should be in your hands VERY soon.... Devlin #: 12590 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:35:32 Sb: Setup Failure Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 To: Neil Rosenberg 75300,3553 Have you tried changing the cable with one that you know works with another machine that is running MS-DOS v5? Perhaps this cable is unable to handle the error checking through the status pin.... Devlin #: 12596 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:55:18 Sb: Bypassing Bootloader? Fm: Michael Williams 75016,1777 To: All Is there a way to boot directly to Windows NT without using "Loadable Bootloader"? My VGA (T3200SXC) is bothered by something that bootloader does and I'd like to see if NT alone causes the same problem. Thanks. There is 1 Reply. #: 12610 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 15:07:22 Sb: #12596-Bypassing Bootloader? Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Michael Williams 75016,1777 (X) Michael, There is no way to bypass the bootloader alltogether. You can skip the screen where you are asked what OS you want to boot into, but the bootloader is still being used in that event. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12600 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 13:54:31 Sb: NT Uninstall? Fm: John B. Deurbrouck 70720,2062 To: All How do I uninstall NT from my machine? I'm moving it to another box, and want to get rid of the multiboot and leave the first machine as a vanilla DOS 5 box? I've scanned the libs and the disk and no luck... ---John There are 2 Replies. #: 12609 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 15:07:18 Sb: #12600-NT Uninstall? Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: John B. Deurbrouck 70720,2062 John, All you should need to do is delete the Windows NT related files and then perform a MS-DOS "SYS" command on your boot drive. This will overwrite the Windows NT bootsector with a DOS bootsector. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12611 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 15:10:49 Sb: #12600-NT Uninstall? Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: John B. Deurbrouck 70720,2062 Just boot to DOS and do a SYS C: command. When DOS re-installs the system files, it re-writes the boot sector, axing FlexBoot. There is also a utility in one of the libraries call BOOTSECT that will install your old bootsector directly (that little file in C:\ called BOOTSECT.DOS has your old boot sector in it). However, I can't say whether it actually functions as I use DR-DOS 6.0, and that util assumes you have a DOS 5.0 boot sector. Dave P.S. from there, just delete the WINNT and MSTOOLS trees. #: 12613 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 15:58:11 Sb: #12503-Two Drive Speed Fm: Don Cock 72520,1500 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Terence, It's not that much of a difference, but it was an interesting thing that caught my eye. It may be that the next version will have a different signature as far as these times go. Thanks, DonC #: 12634 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 18:49:40 Sb: error: 0x69 Fm: Tom Sullivan 75216,2357 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Never did get the mouse to work under DOS and I tried a lot of Apps: Foxpro some Fox I wrote UI2 etc. My Config and autoexec seem fine. All my windows apps worked fine. Then I installed WFW and tested that for a while. When I came back to NT the windows apps won't work. I move Win to drive D: a SCSI and I'm using WFW without a netcard in this NT machine. To the best of my knowledge nothing else change except a DOS driver for my ROM from Future Domain. I did a reinstall using DOS2NT. Can't do the graphic the Future Domain driver didn't exist for SCSI and ROM. I can get to drive D and ROM from NT but the windows apps still don't work. Funny my first install was from diskettes via a third party machine that had a ROM. This is a PS2/70 12Meg ESI 120 and SCSI 120. I thing I'll wait for the beta and try again I checked the registry ect. Thanks: Tom #: 12695 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 18:20:18 Sb: NT & SMC 8013EP Fm: Leon Bass 76050,2303 To: SYSOP (X) For the several people having trouble with the SMC(WD) 8013EP network cards: I had the same problem with NT claiming that no adapters were found, and it was driving me crazy. However, I told NT that I had an 8003 and all of a sudden my workstation is attached to a wfw machine and actually beginning to share resources as of today!! #: 12662 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 08:16:50 Sb: Chinon ignore Fm: Randy Subers 72707,1040 To: All I have been unable to get NT to recognize a Chinon CDX-431 CD ROM drive with a Chinon controller. NT setup gives me a message saying it cannot find the hard drive. I can install with DOS2NT but NT still cannot find the CD ROM drive. Since DOS recognizes the drive just fine it does not seem to be a drive problem. I have an IDE hard drive as my main drive which may or may not be contributing to the problem. Any suggestions? There are 2 Replies. #: 12685 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 16:22:23 Sb: #12662-Chinon ignore Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Randy Subers 72707,1040 (X) NT will recognize the Chinon drive but the drive must be on a recognized SCSI card (mine is on a 1542b). bob #: 12712 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 08:51:12 Sb: #12662-Chinon ignore Fm: Charles Gallo 74020,3224 To: Randy Subers 72707,1040 (X) Randy, The problem is that even though the CDX-431 is supported, it's SCSI card is not :-(. You need to hook the drive up to one of the supported SCSI cards. I have the same problem Charlie #: 12680 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 11:16:46 Sb: CD-ROM and Windows NT Fm: Michael J. Primeaux 71201,3524 To: ALL I have a Chinon CDS-431 CD-ROM and need to know how to tell Windows NT to recognize it. Any suggestions? Hardware: 486/33 with 20megs of RAM (IBM-Compatible) Michael J. Primeaux There is 1 Reply. #: 12713 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 08:51:22 Sb: #12680-CD-ROM and Windows NT Fm: Charles Gallo 74020,3224 To: Michael J. Primeaux 71201,3524 Michael, I too have the CDS-431. The problem is that even though the drive is supported, it's SCSI card is not :-(. You have to hook the drive to a supported SCSI card. Charlie #: 12700 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 20:54:55 Sb: CD-ROM and Windows NT Fm: Michael J. Primeaux 71201,3524 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, Thanks for the information, you've been very helpful. Michael #: 12654 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 05:54:55 Sb: #12463-winnt install Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Just for info, How much memory are your running? What is the box and BIOS? There is 1 Reply. #: 12660 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 08:03:10 Sb: #12654-winnt install Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X) RE: Memory The system is a 486/33 clone (one of the infamous 90 boards -- made in Taiwan and works on 90% of applications (AMI definition ). has AMI bios dated july 91. Have 20 meg of ram, 2 - quantum IDE harddrives, 1 seagate SCSI II drive, 1 maxtor SCSI - awful drive (but cheap), a bernoulli internal, a wangtek 5525 (soon 1 gig). believe it or not it all works & NT thinks all is fine. Given the fact that I also have an HP scanner, 2 parallel ports, and the MS sound system card, I deem it close to miraculous . bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12715 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 09:03:20 Sb: #12660-winnt install Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, I too have an AMI bios on a Taiwan board and 20 megs. I had to do a dos2NT install as I am beleagured with a NON-SCSI II CD-ROM. I too have a scanner (Microtek) but I have yet to diddle with it via NT. I just now got TAPCIS to function albeit sluggishly slow. I can type much faster than the letters appear on the screen (right now) ((when I finished typing the "right now I looked up, yes I am one of those types of typists, to see the "r" in appear post to the screen). With a little typing concentration I can probably overload my keyboard buffer . I hope I won't. I was concerned that perhaps the extra 4 megs (between 16&20) was adding to the fatigue the system often displays and as I did the dos2NT install, I have seen threads on bith issues here and was curious whater a borroed (only route for the present) SCSI-II CD-ROM and 4 les megs of ram would reap a benefit in a speed increse? I think I will plod along fettered until the next release of NT arrives. What type of controller are you using? I assumed an ADAPTEC 1542b? What is the Wangtek, a tape? Apps - I have gotten Commence (the "Phoenix" of IBM's Current) running well. Excel and Winword were a simple install and they have functioned flawlessly to date. I tried running Microphone II but I and getting system hangs with it so far, some forcing a BRS (big red switch) reset. I can get the task list up on demand but attempting to end the session with MP-II returns me to the hung version. Just on a lark I nabbed my kids "SIMCITY" and it balked at "NO Pallatte" or some such error message. All for now. Thanks for the info. There is 1 Reply. #: 12716 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 09:47:44 Sb: #12715-winnt install Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X) denis: The issue of the extra 4 megs of ram is interesting. Very complex scenario. In a nutshell, it can give slower performance. Would not be concerned however until the frthcoming beta release. Then we can raise hell! Re: scanner -- don't even waste your time trying. Drivers will have to be written that will work in NT. probably be sometime. the wangtek is a tape backup. Nt recognizes it as such but cannot handle the tape format. Hopefully this will be fixed in the beta release. Good luck. Incidentally the palette statement probably means that the game is looking for a specific color palette. NT is pretty crippled in this regard with this alphs release. bob #: 12729 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 12:38:19 Sb: It's Back Fm: Tom Sullivan 75216,2357 To: sysop (X) My windows apps returned to NT. I ran setup on a couple of them and then they all started working???. They worked before then I moved windows to drive d: and they went away. Then I did a reinstall DOS2NT and they didn't work until I did the above. I still have no mouse on the DOS apps. #: 12743 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 18:15:59 Sb: Unattached CD-ROM Fm: Leon Bass 76050,2303 To: Microsoft or Whoever I finally got WINNT installed and recognizing my ethernet card. Now I am unable to execute anything off the CD drive. I can access files on the drive, but when I try to execute one, I get a message that my CD-ROM drive is 'not attached.' This, of course, is the same CD that I used to install NT. What gives?? #: 12587 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:35:12 Sb: #12225-NT Installation Hangs Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 To: Peter von Glahn 71202,1067 (X) Your problem may be resolved by the next release of the product. You should be getting it soon.... Devlin There are 2 Replies. #: 12598 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 13:23:35 Sb: #12587-NT Installation Hangs Fm: Peter von Glahn 71202,1067 To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X) If the next release solves my problem, fine. I'll be glad to wait since I'm not in a panic to get NT running. Thanks for your time. #: 12756 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 01:11:50 Sb: #12587-NT Installation Hangs Fm: Daniel Appleman 70303,2252 To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X) Peter: I hope you're right - I've been unable to run NT due to the exact same setup problem. Dan #: 12757 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 02:39:59 Sb: #12180-Startup Failure Fm: DANIEL LOCHER 100042,216 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) no. Have you? #: 12769 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 03:50:29 Sb: #12289-Trantor/NEC SCSI Adapter Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John, That message did not post too well. Sorry about that. There is a 10 pin jumper block on the T128. The lower row is used for IRQ selection. If pin 1-2 is closed you select IRQ5. If pin 2-3 is closed it's IRQ7. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 12788 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 06:10:29 Sb: #12769-Trantor/NEC SCSI Adapter Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, Thanks for the update. Yep CIS mangled it, but I was going to wait to see if I could demangle it with the card in front of me. Only supporting 5 and 7 is a real bummer. Time to start rearranging, sigh. John There is 1 Reply. #: 12792 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 07:08:56 Sb: #12788-Trantor/NEC SCSI Adapter Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) john, <> Tell me about it. If I could not set this EISA machine to share IRQs for COM2 & LPT1 I would not have a free IRQ. I do know that I will not buy any cheapo 8 bit SCSI card for my home system. This 8 bit card crap from vendors and dealers is driving me crazy. Art #: 12771 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 03:57:55 Sb: turn off autoconfig? Fm: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 To: sysop sysop (X) Is it possible to control the automatic hardware sniffing done by NT at boot time, e.g. if one has a device that one does not want configured automatically? There is 1 Reply. #: 12801 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:08:29 Sb: #12771-turn off autoconfig? Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 David, It is possible to have a device that Windows NT recognizes to not be started during the boot sequence. With Regedit.ext, HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE|SYSTEM|CurrentControlSet|Services you can change the start value of recognized hardware to 04. This will ensure that the driver for this hardware is not initialized during the boot sequence. However, you must be aware that REGEDIT is very powerful and you can really hurt your configuration if it is not used properly. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12732 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 13:08:23 Sb: Install Failure Fm: Christopher Brickhill 71334,2443 To: Microsoft Fm Christopher Brickhill (71334,2443) T0 Microsoft Technical Support Windows NT installation failure When the installation process attempts to copy CANYON.MID from a Future Domain driver/CD Technology Porta Drive CD it hangs. For a few moments the C: drive lights up, and for some time the CD indicates activity, however eventually a non critical error is reported: "D:\I386\CANYON.MID cannot be copied". I have Gateway 486 Eisa, 32 M ram, 320 m disk, the above CD. Any suggestions ? There is 1 Reply. #: 12803 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:08:39 Sb: #12732-Install Failure Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Christopher Brickhill 71334,2443 Christopher, Generally this occurs because of an interrupt conflict. What has happened is that ntdetect.com has initialized just prior to the copying of canyon.mid. A conflict occurred with the SCSI card and the file copy failed. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12749 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 20:01:02 Sb: Configuration Info. Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 To: Microsoft Tech. Support I'd like to know if you have an 'ideal' configuration for running Windows NT that you could suggest. I currently have the following system configuration, and am having trouble getting the IRQ settings for the Plus HardCard 105 to be recognized by Windows NT: System: ALR Powerflex 386, 14 MB RAM Hard Disk 1: Conner 40MB AT-Bus Hard Disk 2: Plus HardCard 105 CD-ROM: Sony CDU 535 CD-ROM Adapter: Sony CDB-240 I also have a memory expansion card installed on the system bus, in addition to a Zoom Modem. The DOS2NT install works fine, getting all the way to the Windows NT boot loader. After selecting Windows NT, a series of files appear to load, then the error Phase 1 I/O Initialization error. If this error means that the configuration I have is not compatible with Windows NT, could you please let me know which components I need to change? You assistance with this is much appreciated. Louis Columbus There is 1 Reply. #: 12804 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:21:57 Sb: #12749-Configuration Info. Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 Louis, The problem is either the 'HardCard' or the 'Sony CDB-240' both are not on the supported list. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12823 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 10:46:52 Sb: #12542-Win/NT, OS/2 1.3 Install Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: John Hess 72350,3141 John, FlexBoot would only allow you to choose between Windows NT and one other operating system. Some users reported successful installation of OS/2 dual boot and Windows NT FlexBoot to "simulate" triple boot. However, since that is not a supported configuration, I don't have any additional information on it. You can install Windows NT on any partition, or directory you wish and have it boot for that location. However, for the July release, we don't recommend or support booting Windows NT from an NTFS or HPFS partition. Hope this helps. Sam Karroum [MS] #: 12831 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 11:08:11 Sb: #12351-NT Problems BOOT Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: - Visitor 76137,3311 Michael, Please state exactly what happens when you select to boot DOS from the FlexBoot menu? The Diamond SpeedStar is only supported in VGA 640x480 mode for the July release. Regards, Sam Karroum [MS] #: 12783 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 05:40:47 Sb: Supported hardware Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 To: sysop (X) Do you have a list of supported equipment in the libraries here? I couldn't find it. There is 1 Reply. #: 12800 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:08:23 Sb: #12783-Supported hardware Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 Michael, The last time I looked it was in WINNT lib 1 and called 0992hw.txt Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12839 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 12:23:11 Sb: #12800-Supported hardware Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Tanks for the infor #: 12847 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 13:15:23 Sb: #12504-WINNT Boot Hangs on 16Mb Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Frank Waldner 72550,1162 (X) Frank, Is the registry set up exactly the same \registry\machine\system\currentcontrolset\services\t128 on both machines? Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12852 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 13:37:45 Sb: #12847-WINNT Boot Hangs on 16Mb Fm: Frank Waldner 72550,1162 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Scott, Thanks for your swift reply. Yes, both machines have the same registry. You see, I physically move the hard drive from the 386/25 (8Mb) to my 486/33 (16Mb). Thus, the software configs are absolutely IDENTICAL. I have made the hardware environment as consistent as possible by having duplicate SCSI controllers and other interfaces. The only differences are: the processor type, the amount of memory, and the 386 has a Sound Blaster. I used DOS2NT to install from the CD-ROM onto the hard drive. This never worked on the 486 but was flawless on the 386. The SCSI is the Trantor T128 with a NEC CDR-74 CD. I was able to load the T128 driver into the registry and successfully accessed the CD when NT booted on my 386. The point here is that the 486 NEVER GOT NT to boot past the blue screen. I first thought that I'd somehow screwed up during install on the 486 and tried several different things. Eventually I took a shot at putting it on my 386. Surprise! No problemo! SO I figured, heck I've got NT built on this hard drive, why not just stick the hard drive on the 486 and boot it up. But no go. It's not a disk drive problem as far as I can tell since the DOS 5.0 that on the drive boots up just fine. I was wondering whether the default swap file size is too small for a 16Mb configuration? Again, thanks for any assistance. Please advise. Frank #: 12616 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 16:23:49 Sb: #12448-Hive 'Security' not open Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 David, I'm glad to hear you got things going, and yes, there is a [much] better DOS install included with the Beta Release. -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12854 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 13:53:24 Sb: #12616-Hive 'Security' not open Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Terrence, Thanks for your assistance and input so far, and thanks as well to the other gentleman from Microsoft who I spoke (typed?) to... Its nice to get some decent support on this near-beta software. While I like IBM OS/2 better than NT so far, getting any support at all for the OS/2 2.01 beta software is like pulling teeth. IBM does not respond to questions posted, nor will their tech support staff talk about the Beta stuff. I realize that the NT SDK and Beta releases have a different mission than the OS/2 2.01 Beta release, IBM's attitude suddenly stinks like the good ol' days when IBM was still more like Big Brother... I quess its a good thing I found all this out before I bothered grabbing the OS/2 Beta, and thus didn't waste my time on it. Just wanted to complain a bit.... BTW, it now looks like I won't be needing that DOS install after all; I found someone to take this Pinnacle Micro CD-ROM off my hands, and I'll be getting a nice new Panasonic MC-501 CD-ROM and an Adaptec AHA-1540 controller. Oh, happy day! :-) Dave #: 12594 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:50:57 Sb: Tseng ET4000 800x600 Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: RanDair Porter 70312,120 (X) this is probably no real help, but my STB Powergraph VGA has similar problems with the TSENG ET4000 support in NT... the only way I can get it to work is with the PDII.SYS driver and the TS_1024.DLL driver. The 800x600 drivers result in no display at all, and the ET400_70 or ET400_60 result in a display that flickers like crazy. Oddly, I can tell by the appearance of the screen that the 1024x768 mode screen that NT puts up is not at the same refresh rate as the Windows 3.1 driver I have Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 12650 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 00:51:47 Sb: #12594-Tseng ET4000 800x600 Fm: Denis Fortin 70703,2646 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 >>> this is probably no real help, but my STB Powergraph VGA has similar problems with the TSENG ET4000 support in NT... <<< My ET4000-based Boca Super VGA card & TTX monitor combination has also been giving me headaches! Actually, I could only get it to work in 640x480 mode: other modes produced a "rolling" screen, which seems to imply that the monitor didn't like the frequency put out by the card. (The monitor will not do 60 or 70 Hz, but rather something like 56 or 58!) It does work fine under DOS at high resolutions... *SIGH* Oh well, I'm hoping the Beta version will support more monitor frequencies for the ET4000 (X386 in the Unix world is extremely configurable with respect to the monitor, albeit a bit tough to set up -- I'd hope to see similar configurability but with a slightly more frienly user interface) Let's hope the Beta gives us all 800x600 or 1024x768... Denis, in low res mode (boy, I guess these SGI workstations have got me spoiled!). #: 12856 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 14:07:19 Sb: #12650-Tseng ET4000 800x600 Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Denis Fortin 70703,2646 >>>Let's hope the Beta gives us all 800x600 or 1024x768... <<< Well, mine at least works, just not quite the way one would expect. Along the same lines, the service pack for OS/2 will be including Tseng ET-4000 support. You can bet I'm praying that similar problems won't plague IBM as well. All this sort of implies that the ET-4000 cards we are using are not sufficiently generic to work right with NT, yet I use totally generic drivers under DOS, which work perfectly, including a generic Win 3.1 driver, and the generic ET-4000 support that DesqView/X includes, and under UNIX with the generic ET-4000 driver included with X1. Odd, wouldn't you say? Dave #: 12846 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 13:15:18 Sb: #12530-DCE376 Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X) Keith, Trantor 510-656-5159. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12860 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 14:23:36 Sb: #12846-DCE376 Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Thanks Scott! #: 12911 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 20:41:37 Sb: Adaptec 1742 and NT Fm: Mike Higgins 71121,1522 To: sysop (X) I have an adaptex 1742 with the floppy disabled running in standard mode. During install, the card gets recognized. However, soon after the "recognized" messages, I get SCSI protocol error messages and then the message that there are no CD-ROMS in my system. The ROM is an NEC-84 that works fine under dos. Any thoughts? The system is a nondescript 486/50DX with 16 MB. #: 12912 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 20:56:57 Sb: Trick for WD1009 Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 To: all I can't remember who gave me the trick to get Windows NT to work with a WD1009-SE2 ESDI controler, the problem was a fatal 0x69 error. I would like to thanks him for his tips, because it WORKS and it is troubleless. The trick was the select a user defined type for my hard drive that match the translation of the hard drive controler BIOS. Louis #: 12791 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 06:47:27 Sb: Boot DOS by default? Fm: Bob Affrunti 70740,2341 To: all How is BOOT.INI changed so that DOS (not NT) is the default boot configuration? There is 1 Reply. #: 12811 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 10:12:12 Sb: #12791-Boot DOS by default? Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: Bob Affrunti 70740,2341 Bob, In BOOT.INI under the section [flexboot], change the line "default" to read default=c:\ save the file and you're done. PS. The file is READ only, so make sure to change the attribute before opening it. This is only a workaround for now. In the retail release you should be able to change the default operating system and timeout through the Control Panel. Regards, Sam Karroum [MS] #: 12915 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 21:27:39 Sb: #12811-Boot DOS by default? Fm: Bob Affrunti 70740,2341 To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X) Sam, Thanks for your prompt reply. #: 12648 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 21:57:56 Sb: Plus HardCard 105 Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 To: Microsoft Support I am have installed Windows NT onto a Plus HardCard using the DOS2NT procedure defined in the July 1992 Release Notes. The message: 0x00000069, Phase 1, I/O Initialization Error appears on my screen after NT begins to boot. I have an ALR PowerFlex 386/20 with 14MB of RAM, and two other hard disk drives attached. Could you please advise how I can solve this problem and get NT up and running? Also, will the next release of Windows NT (rumored to be available by the end of this month) be more tolerant of IRG assignments, and DMA speeds? Thanks for your help. Louis Columbus There is 1 Reply. #: 12751 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 21:50:30 Sb: #12648-Plus HardCard 105 Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 Louis, The plus HardCards use DOS device drivers. So far no drivers are available for them to work in NT. What you should do at this point is download the HWFEED.TXT here in LIB 1 and send in a request to have your hardware supported. You should also contact the manufacturer and express interest in them supporting NT. Darren #: 12897 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 18:55:12 Sb: #12751-Plus HardCard 105 Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) Darren, Thank you for your prompt reply. I'll download the HWFEED.TXT file in addition to 0992HW.TXT and get NT up and running. Louis Columbus There is 1 Reply. #: 12920 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 21:56:02 Sb: #12897-Plus HardCard 105 Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 No problem. Just happy to help. Darren #: 12921 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 23:23:55 Sb: 0x69 error on setup Fm: Tom Jordan 100026,2751 To: all I am having a problem installing Windows NT on a 486 class maching. I get through the step that copies the files onto the hard disk but when it reboots after that step I get a fatal error 0x00000069 - "Phase 1 I/O initialization failed". Any thoughts? There is 1 Reply. #: 12941 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 06:13:17 Sb: #12921-0x69 error on setup Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Tom Jordan 100026,2751 Tom, Error 0x00000069 This is a phase one initialization error, which happens when Windows NT tries to talk with the HD controller. It can be caused by any number of things. Things to try: * If the card allows, slow down the DMA transfer rate. * Make sure both ends of the SCSI bus are terminated. * Make sure there are no IRQ, or memory address conflicts. * Make sure you're aren't using a faulty or un-supported driver i.e. the FD 1680 SCSI controller is supported, but there is a problem with that driver which will be fixed and posted on WinNT, Lib 2. * Make sure that your card is listed in the hardware compatibiltiy list which was provided with your release notes. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12904 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 19:49:19 Sb: WINNT won't run DOS Fm: Brian Richardson 70720,2211 To: Sysop (X) WinNT won't run DOS or Windows 3.1 sessions. I have an IBM Model 90 486 33Mhz with NEC CD-ROM and a IBM-Audio sound card. NT installed OK, 16MB of RAM... I get this error message when I try to run a Windows App. NTVDM.EXE - The instruction at 0x010a045a referenced memory at 0xffffffff The memory could not be read. OK to terminate Cancel to debug. These options get no results. Repeatable, unable to run. I would appreciate any help! 70720,2211 Work Phone Number (801) 322-7892 Thanks for your help! There is 1 Reply. #: 12946 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:35:03 Sb: #12904-WINNT won't run DOS Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Brian Richardson 70720,2211 Brian, What is in your config.sys and autoexec.bat? Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12873 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 16:29:29 Sb: Error 0x0000069? Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521 To: Jerry Drain [Microsoft] 72350,2056 (X) Someone over on Prodigy who doesn't have a cserve acc. had a problem with installation, and ask me if I could help him since I'm always talking about NT. I couldn't as I never had any problems with any of the installations I've done. He says he is doing dos2nt install, and everything goes fine until the final part of the boot at which time he gets an error 0x0000069. What is this? There is 1 Reply. #: 12947 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:35:09 Sb: #12873-Error 0x0000069? Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521 Ken, Error 0x00000069 This is a phase one initialization error, which happens when Windows NT tries to talk with the HD controller. It can be caused by any number of things. Things to try: * If the card allows, slow down the DMA transfer rate. * Make sure both ends of the SCSI bus are terminated. * Make sure there are no IRQ, or memory address conflicts. * Make sure you're aren't using a faulty or un-supported driver i.e. the FD 1680 SCSI controller is supported, but there is a problem with that driver which will be fixed and posted on WinNT, Lib 2. * Make sure that your card is listed in the hardware compatibiltiy list which was provided with your release notes. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12949 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:35:26 Sb: #12546-NT HANGS Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: claude bachelet 100111,3557 Claude, What do you mean by "if I take the CD out then back in after boot"? Do you mean that the install hangs if you remove the CD from the CD player then put it back in the CD player? What do you mean by "with no PROM"? Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12952 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:51:15 Sb: #12447-WIN/NT & OS/2 2.0 Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: David Lipper 72130,1631 David, There have been some people successful in getting OS/2 2.0 and Windows NT working using IBM's "Boot Manager". However, MS does not support the configuration or problems that surface as a result of the configuration. As for Video support in the current release of Windows NT we only support the following video modes: Super VGA: Headland Technology: VRAM VGA VRAM II VGA VRAM II ERGO Tseng Labs ET4000: Orchid Technology Pro-Designer IIs a variety of cards using the ET4000 chip set. Others: XGA DELL DGX frame buffer All of the above drivers may have problems if full-screen mode is used with DOS applications; the screen may become unreadable. Alt-Enter will bring you back to windows (altough a 10 second delay may be required) at which point you can terminate the fullscreen session through the Task Manager. This will not affect the stability of the other applications or of the rest of the system. On some video cards with non-standard ROM fonts, some of the fullscreen character modes (text mode) may not be currently supported. Setup will only install the standard VGA driver, along with the XGA and the DELL DGX driver. Any Super VGA driver must be installed manually as described below. Note: * This is only a temporary measure. In a future release, installation of Super VGA drivers will be done automatically. * All these drivers only work if an appropriate monitor is attached to the adapter. Some monitors do not support the higher resolution or frequencies required by these drivers. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12953 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:51:20 Sb: #12332-Error 0x67 on boot Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Jeff Davies 70740,2765 Jeff, If you have any ROM Shadowing or caching going on disable it. Also run the IBSTEP program from the library (IBSTEP.ZIP--I think lib 1). Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12956 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 08:05:13 Sb: Page Fault @ install Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Peter Dennett 76470,540 Peter, What hardware do you have in this system? (disk controller, network card, BIOS, Video.....) Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12957 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 08:08:15 Sb: #11816-install error Fm: Bob Churchwell 70743,3000 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Scott, That was my problem! I took the card out for now. Thanks for all your help! Michelle #: 12580 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:15:20 Sb: #12525-HELP !! Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X) Assuming you are running a DOS that can handle the big partitions, and you are not over the 1024 cylinder limit, you should be able to install both D: and E: in a single extended partition, without any special drivers. Of course, you'll have to back up everything on D: before doing this... If you don't need to see your E: partition from WINNT, you might be able to put it back with the special drivers. NT _should_ boot from C: or D:, and simply not see E:. What NT _should_ do and what NT DOES do are so far two entirely seperate things. Which is why OS/2 2.0 gets a 95% share of up-time on my system. Be quiet MS defenders - I know that WINNT is not even Beta yet while OS/2 2.0 has been shipping for six months and that OS/2 therefore has an advantage in doing what its supposed to. Later Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 12599 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 13:48:53 Sb: #12580-HELP !! Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 (X) Dave - Over the 1024 limit - Argh!! One would think NT would ignore what it can't use but when E: drive is installed again NT gets all confused and can't find its way home. I do appreciate the suggestions Dave - maybe I'll have to blow the dust off my stack of OS/2 disks! Keith There are 2 Replies. #: 12606 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 15:03:22 Sb: #12599-HELP !! Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X) There's all sorts of things that one would think NT would do... like set up standard 80x25 DOS mode screens instead of insisting on 80x50... provide correctly sized fonts for 1024x768 screens... OS/2 looks better on VGA than NT does on 1024x768... Perhaps the soon to be released Beta NT will behave better with your extended partition. Good Luck, Dave #: 12625 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 17:17:58 Sb: #12599-HELP !! Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X) Keith, I have one of those > 1024 jobbies. 1224 to be exact. The translating BIOS routine had no problem installing (DOS2NT) on E: and booting NT from E: is no sweat either. It's using the CD ... now there's the rub ! -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 12735 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 16:02:29 Sb: #12625-HELP !! Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 Alex - Thanks for the hope! Did you do anything special to enable NT to boot from E: ? Keith #: 12845 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 13:14:28 Sb: #12735-HELP !! Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X) Keith, I didn't do anything unusual, except modify the boot.ini file, prior to the triple-boot routine required to complete the DOS2NT install. Just changed that default line. The reason for E: was simple ... I moved everything from there to D: and C: and gave NT 106 MB to play around in. It worked, which is more than I can say about the "supported CD Technology Porta Drive and FD TM850 SCSI controller" which still don't read data from NT. It does play great Elton John and Eric Clapton CDs so I really shouldn't complain ! Let me know if I can help in any way. I'll be happy to give it a shot. -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 12861 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 14:30:23 Sb: #12845-HELP !! Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Alex What did you use to partition and format the E: drive? Thanks for your input!! Keith There is 1 Reply. #: 12968 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 09:23:07 Sb: #12861-HELP !! Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 Keith, I used DOS 5 FDISK to partition and format. Currently am using DOS 6 beta, but didn't require reformat or repartitioning. -a. #: 12872 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 16:21:56 Sb: NT Install Problems Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 To: sysop (X) Hi there, this weekend I finally got all of my hardware upgraded so that can install Windows NT. As I was loading the software it occured to me that I should have checked here before loading. Oh well, live and learn. My question is; as a new user of NT what notes, threads, files. etc. should I be checking? My problems are: 1. Even though I selected Logictech serial mouse during install, I have no mouse support. 2. I have no LAN so I did not install LAN support; now I have no authority to update my configuration! 3. When I try to reboot to my previous OS I get the message that drive C: is not bootable!!! Do you have any remedies for the above problems? Thanks for any help you can give.a There is 1 Reply. #: 12948 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:35:16 Sb: #12872-NT Install Problems Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 >>1. Even though I selected Logictech serial mouse during >> install, I have no mouse support. --Support for this mouse isn't in the kit yet. >>2. I have no LAN so I did not install LAN support; now I >> have no authority to update my configuration! --Log on as username "Administrator" with no password. >>3. When I try to reboot to my previous OS I get the message that drive C: >> is not bootable!!! --What is the previous OS? If it is DOS or OS2 insure that the boot.ini operating systems path is pointing to the previous operating systems loader. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12981 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 09:59:34 Sb: #12948-NT Install Problems Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Thanks! Any idea when Logitech support will be available? Any suggestions on getting my mouse to work? My previous OS was DOS; I will check the BOOT.INI. Thanks again! #: 12995 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 11:27:29 Sb: #12548-NT Problems Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: - Visitor 76137,3311 Michael, Is this a new problem? In other words, were able to boot DOS previously from the same installation? If yes, what changes have you made to the system? Please include a listing if hardware configuration (hard drive controller and settings -if appropriate, hard drive, other hardware...) What are the current settings for the SoundBlaster card? I/O address and IRQ settings? Does these settings conflict with an other hardware in the machine? Which high resolution drivers are you using? The Diamond SpeesStar card is only supported in VGA resultion with the July release. Regards, Sam Karroum [MS] #: 12869 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 16:08:08 Sb: #12307-NT Bootsector Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Robin Wilson 70703,2221 Robin, I'm not exactly sure from what you've said what you are looking to do. I hope the following will be helpful, though: The purpose of the bootsect.exe program is to make it easy for you to switch back and forth between having a Windows NT boot sector and an MS-DOS boot sector on your system's hard drive. Usually, you would have no need to do this. For more information about how bootsect.exe works, see the description in the header of the bootsect.c file that comes with it. A successfull installation of Windows NT, either via DOS2NT.BAT or the graphical install, will place a Windows NT bootsector on your boot drive AND create a file called "bootsect.dos". Bootsect.dos is used by the Windows NT bootloader when you choose to boot into your previous opperating system. You can replace an MS-DOS boot sector by booting from an MS-DOS floppy and using the "SYS" command to make your C: drive bootable. You can also use the debug script found at the beginning of the DOS2NT.BAT file to convert a dos boot sector to a Windows NT boot sector. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 13002 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 12:04:28 Sb: NT Bootsector Fm: Robin Wilson 70703,2221 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Thank you, I'll look at the bat file. and most likely reinstall Thanks again #: 12646 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 21:49:21 Sb: #12560-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Amocams/Modular, Inc. 76260,3666 (X) Bill, <> I suspect that the geometry is different. That has been a sore point with NT and ESDI drives for a while. I'm suprised about that with an IDE drive though. Have you tried it with several different customizable BIOS settings? You might try it in the 600 cyl range just to see what happens. If it works you could try a closer setting until it fails, and maybe get a handle on the problem. That's about all I can think of. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 12659 S3/Windows NT Setup 17-Oct-92 08:03:02 Sb: #12646-Seagate 3283A Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: Thought I would make your day. . can get the Fujitsu 520 SCSI II for $865.00. Scary!! bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12758 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 03:17:06 Sb: #12659-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <. can get the Fujitsu 520 SCSI II for $865.00. Scary!!>> Oh why didn't you tell me this before I spent $1199 for the IDE version a couple of months ago? But I do know someone looking for another IDE drive. Maybe I should have you talk to him. It's the same guy I tild you about the PC's and driving the 300 miles to pick them up. He stopped by here this weekend. Said he would not mind driving to pick them up. 300 miles is nothing he said. It's about 700 miles from his house to mine. He drove home last evening. He just bought a 50 Mhz EISA beast and is trying to get the right drives. He already bought a good IDE controller, but wants a 500 Mb drive. Art PS: If the price is right maybe I'll want another IDE drive for X-Mas. :) There is 1 Reply. #: 12797 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 07:45:11 Sb: #12758-Seagate 3283A Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: They pulled in some favors and got one of the XTs fixed. BUT! the guy told them that the harddrive was iffy at best. Don't know the status of the other box. Will find out today. Took the address of the disk place home over the weekend. It is in El Chino, Calif. Will try to get it tomorrow! bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12799 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:02:58 Sb: #12797-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) bob, No big deal on the XT. Whatever happens with it is cool. How'd they like your bill? As to the disk company, yes I'm interested. I'll be looking for the name and address. You can't beat those prices. But if it requires a business license maybe I should have my friend but it from you. You could turn a small profitt and he'd be happy too. Besides you are closer to him than I am. :) TTYL... Art #: 12832 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 11:24:33 Sb: #12799-Seagate 3283A Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: They never batted an eye on the bill. . Don't know about the second machine. Will post address tomorrow. Don't rush into the new ATI card. On a ISA bus, cannot have more than 12 megs ram installed. Dumbest thing I have run across in a long time. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12929 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 03:42:55 Sb: #12832-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <> So that's what you were talking about on the other forum. Crap! I already have 16 Mb and expect to buy more. I bet ATI maps that 2 Mb frame directly. That would limit it to < 16 Mb address space on an ISA machine. Looks like the ATI card is out for me. Maybe when I get an EISA machine I'll look again. Thanks for the info... Art PS: Does the local bus version have the same problem? There is 1 Reply. #: 12937 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 05:20:15 Sb: #12929-Seagate 3283A Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: ATI is committing suicide. First great mistake they made was to treat melike garbage. I am warmed up from orchid already . Ended up settling on the old graphics ultra. Fast and only program that it cannot work with is Powerpoint (interesting to see what they say about this one ). The company with the cheap Fujitsus is Cell Micro (714) 830-2355. $869 for IDE or SCSI 520. Am considering the monster Fujitsu for 1400. Out of curiosity, how do you configure such a critter for NT and Dos. I assume that you use a debug routine to the adaptec controller and tell it to fib about things. is this correct? or am I heading for major trouble here in NT? bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12950 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:36:17 Sb: #12937-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Bob, RE: ATI Driver related problems can be caused by several things. Most times it is improper handling of parameters to a function call. The question is... is it powerPoint or the ATI driver that is really the cause. I have found that the ATI drivers are very timing sensitive. The ATI cards use a command queue of some type. The 3.1 beta caused a lot of grief there. Also you might want to check to see if you have the latest drivers. MSL did have a set which have worked well for me. RE: Big Drives... Well if it is SCSI I'm not too sure. IDE drives use logical translation at the hardware level. The bottom line is that the translation must provide less than 1024 cyls 16 heads and 64 sectors. Anything over that is wasted. SCSI drives have similar problems. Some controllers will split a large physical drives to two smaller logical drives to use all of the disk, but that solution limits you to one single drive. As to NT & DOS. Well you know that third party partitioning schemes and device drivers will not work for NT. You have to get DOS to recognize the extra space without using a third party driver or utility. As to the Adaptec controller, well you got me. I'd think the fibbing is done with the ASPI driver. SCSI drives do not use the system bios for drive selection so... Art #: 12978 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 09:55:38 Sb: #12950-Seagate 3283A Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: Well just got done talking to the folks at Adaptec. they have a new bios that performs a translation. believe it or not, it automatically looks at the harddrive and translates it acoordingly. I simply give it the ID0 & remove my D: drive. It then becomes D. I use FDisk and set the partitions through the translated bios. Should recognize the whole shooting match (I hope). Just format it and away we go. Also think that NT will recognize the translated bios and the drive will be recognized en toto. Have my fingers crossed. Actually will ask Steve Fait about this. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12989 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 10:41:05 Sb: #12978-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <> I would definitly check on this. One of NT's problems now is that a manufacture implements the translation on the bios or drive itself. Each NT driver has to implement this translation scheme for NT to work with the drive as it does not use the BIOS routines. There are people now with SCSI and ESDI (most notably) as well as IDE that are problems related to the translation. But if you can get this type of idea to work it sounds like a good way to go. Since MS and Adaptec are working together maybe the NT driver will keep pace witht he BIOS upgrades. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 13020 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 15:00:50 Sb: #12989-Seagate 3283A Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: I sure hope that Adaptec & Nt are in sync on this one. Will really tick me off (happens several times a day actually) . bob #: 12944 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:08:50 Sb: #12646-Seagate 3283A Fm: Amocams/Modular, Inc. 76260,3666 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) <> That's a good idea, but I'll have to work up some energy to tear up both of my machines again. --Bill Block There is 1 Reply. #: 12951 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 07:37:23 Sb: #12944-Seagate 3283A Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Amocams/Modular, Inc. 76260,3666 Bill, <> I understand. For about 6 weeks I never put the covers back on my machines because I was hacking away. Art #: 12731 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 12:59:30 Sb: #12502-NT ESDI Install Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Terrence, Nobody has gotten back to me with regard to the material I have uploaded to the forum/library. I understand that there may indeed be a hardware conflict, but had hoped that the Registry.txt report would help the developers to isolate and identify it. I have pulled many many cards from the system, including Windows Sound System and any card which may have a conflicting I/O or Irq setting and as yet haven't had any success. If you can, speak to Todd Albertson. With his help, we did have it working. Then I got courageous and tried to do the Graphical Install. When it failed, I thought that bringing it back from Tape would leave me with NT recognizing the CD Rom (in FileMan, etc) but that was not the case. Thank you, -a. #: 13023 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 15:35:13 Sb: #12731-NT ESDI Install Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Alex, I've just spoken to both Todd and Tom. The consensus right now is that it might be a good idea to hold off until you have the October release in hand. I'm afraid that all I've been able to glean from the information I have is that you do have a lot of hardware in your machine. With any luck, the beta will do a better job of dealing with it (or at least telling us what's actually wrong.) Of course, if you need more help when that time comes or if we can be any more help in the mean time, just let us know. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12589 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:35:27 Sb: Security Init. Failure Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 To: Bill Tierney 70741,3041 (X) I am not surprised that you might get errors while setting up with that little memory for the preliminary release. The next release will be in your hands relatively soon. You may want to hold off on your testing until then.... Devlin #: 13051 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 20:48:19 Sb: #12589-Security Init. Failure Fm: Bill Tierney 70741,3041 To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X) Well, I guess I will have wait on the beta version. My particular machine will allow 8Meg on the motherboard, with an additional 8 on a 32bit expansion card, which I didn't purchase with the memory card originally. Unfortunately, my reputable manufacturer (Northgate) tells me that they have not been able to persuade the manufacturer of this board to produce any more. This is not an *old* machine. And is on your supported list... Northgate Elegance 386-33 with Adaptec 1542b SCSI adapter. I guess it just goes to show you that if you *may* ever need an optional component, but it now!!! #: 13050 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 20:45:40 Sb: Win NT Fm: pam fowler 72360,3446 To: 71041,2613 (X) Art Thanks for the response. I just talked to someone in Washington today regarding the Win NT release that is due out. From what he told me it should be out in the next week and a half. Can't wait. Believe me the product was worth the wait. Plan to load on a 486, 50 with 510 IDE drive. Any problems that I should know about? Also want to comment on this way of communication. Like it very much. Responses are fast, and information is great. Keep up the great work, as a user/developer/beta site, it has made life much easier. Pam Fowler JHU/APL There is 1 Reply. #: 13072 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 03:33:34 Sb: #13050-Win NT Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: pam fowler 72360,3446 Pam, <> Just incase you think I work for MS I should tell you that "I do not.". I just help out where I can. << Keep up the great work, as a user/developer/beta site, it has made life much easier.>> See that's why I help out. I'm also a user/developer/beta site. I also feel that CIS has been a great way of providing support. Art PS: I forgot to mention this before, but I noticed that your message was posted to yourself. The best way to get a response from MS is to post your message directly to a section tech support person or to SYSOP or ALL. MS is using a batch process to retrieve and upload their responses. #: 13036 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 18:44:59 Sb: NT won't go Fm: Beverly Pride 70302,2641 To: all Here's a question for all you wise guys and gals. I installed NT about 5 times the other day, and finally had to take th Adaptec controller out and put in an IDE HD. The DOS2NT was done over a network and seemed to work fine. I re-booted, loaded NT, got to the security boot, logged in, and that was all she wrote. I can hit + to get the log-out/ task manager/etc pop-up, but I can't go farther. I call that AAA222+++ security since you can't use the system. I would appreciate any help. THANX! Roger W. Norman, 70302,2641 There is 1 Reply. #: 13079 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 04:03:28 Sb: #13036-NT won't go Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Beverly Pride 70302,2641 (X) Roger, <> How about a complete machine description. Starting with the computer type, memeory, any card installed in the machine, type of hard drive, etc. It's very hard to determine a possible problem with so little to work from. Art #: 13099 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 07:18:56 Sb: Let Me In -- Wee ou Fm: Beverly Pride 70302,2641 To: Arthur Knowles, 71041,2613 (X) Re: giving you more info on the system, it's a no-name (Logical Choice AKA TLC) 486DX2 without accelerator. 16MB RAM, Pure Data 9025 16 Token-Ring (boy will it be fun making that work), 125MB IDE drive with enough room for minimum configuration. 1MB SVGA. Pretty much plain vanilla wrapper. WFW installed DOS installed, and now NT. It seems to like it, but like I said, there's no better security than not being able to get into the system. BIOS is AMI 1991 No other pertinent info as far as I can tell. I'm going to change the drive to a 323MB SCSI with a 1542 from Adaptec, so I'll let you know if that helps, but hardware does not look like the problem. Thanks again for your help here and elsewhere. THANX! There is 1 Reply. #: 13101 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 07:29:29 Sb: #13099-Let Me In -- Wee ou Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Beverly Pride 70302,2641 Beverly, Pull out the Token Ring card and see if that solves your problem. Some people with Token Ring cards have reported a few weird problems. Maybe your Token Ring card is causing the problem too. Art #: 13061 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 22:22:05 Sb: problems Fm: stephen popik 71201,417 To: all I had a problem installing NT and since installing I have had a strange occurrance. I needed to use the DOS2NT.BAT installation process since I have a non-SCSI CD-ROM(Sony 7205). When I got to Step 7, Create Registry, and did the reboot I got error F002, which the troubleshooting guide said was a HW problem, probably memory. I went back to DOS and ran diagnostics which said all was well. I then rebboted into NT and the install continued as if nothing had gone wrong. When I finished the install none of the development tools, such as the C/C++ compiler, had been installed. After investigating a bit, I ran \mstools\manual.bat on my CD-ROM and the tools were installed. Of course there is not a GROUP for these tools in my PROGMAN window. Nor is there a STARTUP group there. My next problem is that this evening I was unable to shutdown or restart NT. I would try and logoff, restart or shutdown and NT would just continue to run. I had hit the RESET button to get out. To NTs credit when I returned to NT nothing appeared corrupted and I was then able to run normally. I also would like to see a way to IMPORT my DOS/WINDOWS 3.1 groups into NT. Is there a way to do this and I'm just not seeing it? Or do I have to manually do it for all my apps(DOS and WINDOWS). Regards Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 13081 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 04:13:37 Sb: #13061-problems Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: stephen popik 71201,417 (X) Steve, FWIW: When you perform an NT reinstall, make sure you delete all of your prior WINNT and MSTOOLS directories. Some weird things may occur otherwise. It's also known that if you crash teh DOS/WOW subsystem that you can experiance a logoff problem. I'd also be thinking about that F002 error. It generally indicates a memory related problem. DOS does not stress the system as much as a protected mode OS. During the IBM OS/2 2.0 beta, enough people had parity problems relating to mismatched simms (speed) and other timing related problems. I think that the next release will cure most of your problems. Assuming you and I can wait another couple of weeks. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 13103 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 08:20:39 Sb: #13081-problems Fm: stephen popik 71201,417 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I'll try a reinstall tonight. If mismatched SIMM speeds can cause a problem I may have a problem. I'm using both 70ns and 80ns SIMMs(each bank is matched though). Since my machine needs 80ns I don't see why having some banks(BANK0) with faster memory would be a problem. What would have crashed DOS/WOW? I tried running Norton Desktop for Windows early in my session and it didn't work. Could that have crashed DOS/WOW and I didn't realize it? Thanks for the info. Regards, Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 13106 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 08:48:09 Sb: #13103-problems Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: stephen popik 71201,417 Steve, <> To be honest I do not know the specific reasons either. I do know that not _all_ memory is the same. I have a caching disk controller that will not work with 3 chip simms for instance. Maybe some hardware guru will show up and give us the technical details. <> Quite possibly. I do not use Norton's Desktop though. NT's DOS/WOW layer is not a 100% emulation. The DOS compatability only supports the DOS int21 interface. So if an app makes unsupported DOS or Windows calls it should fail. The DOS/WOW layer still has a few bugs in it. This one at least has been fixed in the next release from what I've seen here. You might want to post a message here or in the norton forum to ask if an NT version will be made available. Art #: 13014 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 13:40:34 Sb: UK Keyboards Fm: Keith MacDonald 100041,235 To: SYSOP (X) When I run a DOS program, such as CIM, the layout of my UK keyboard is not recognised. It is handled at the CMD command prompt correctly. Is there anything I can do to fix this? Thanks in advance, Keith #: 13113 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 09:07:59 Sb: #13014-UK Keyboards Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Keith MacDonald 100041,235 (X) Keith, The problem has been reported as of message 6637. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12910 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 20:36:16 Sb: TMC850M/Denon Problem Fm: REX DIETERLE 72261,3470 To: 71075,3225 (X) Scott: I am still unable to load NT in the graphics mode from my Denon DRD-253 using a TMC-850M SCSI interface. You suggested changing the address jumpers however non make a difference. Once again I am able to read from the drive under DOS with either the Denon or Future Domaine Drivers. It would appear to me to be more of a driver problem. Is there anyone able to install under the graphical system with a Denon 253 using a FD TMC-850M. I get a ARC Status 8 and Srb Status 0084 unable to read Error with NT. Thanks Rex D. #: 13114 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 09:08:04 Sb: #12910-TMC850M/Denon Problem Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: REX DIETERLE 72261,3470 Rex, The FD 850M must be on IRQ 5 to install Windows NT. The FD850M has a jumper (w5) that sets the card to zero wait state. This jumper must be OPEN for the driver to operate reliably with this adapter. Have you also tried turning all caching/Shadowing etc.. off. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12905 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 19:51:50 Sb: UltraStor 15C/Adap 1542B Fm: Patrick J. Maloney 73407,3676 To: C Straghalis [UltraStor] 71005,1655 (X) Hello! I have a question to which you may know the answer: I am considering buying a system with an UltraStor 15C (2MB) and an Adaptec 1542B (CD-ROM to be bought later - one on the HW list). Is the 15C 100% WD compatible? Any known conflicts? Thanks, Patrick #: 13115 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 09:08:10 Sb: #12905-UltraStor 15C/Adap 1542B Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Patrick J. Maloney 73407,3676 Patrick, I am not sure about the WD1003 compat. issue--you will still need to get with Ultrastore on this one. However, I do know that it is an IDE caching controller, and people have installed NT on a disk controlled by the Ultrastor 15C. However, I do caution you about about using caching controllers with Windows NT because disk security has to know low level details which would be masked by the caching. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12755 S3/Windows NT Setup 18-Oct-92 22:54:00 Sb: HD Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: MS Tech I have NT setup using a Mylex dce376 EISA card but it won't allow me to use anything beyond 1024 cyl in either dos or NT. Is there anyway to get the rest of my valuable HD space back??? Please help [MS] Keith There is 1 Reply. #: 12818 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 10:29:34 Sb: #12755-HD Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 Keith, I understand that the dce376 is a SCSI drive, however I do not know if it can emulate ESDI or not. It is not on the supported list so it has not been tested. How are you using it? There is a problem with large ESDI drives (ie. > 1024 cyl). If the card does not do hardware translation and the driver for the card also does not do the translation then there is this problem. However, SCSI is different. ESDI uses CHS (cylinder, sector, head) address. SCSI uses RBA (relative block address) adressing. Normally, you do not worry about a 1024 cylinder limit with SCSI, until the SCSI drive becomes very large (> 1 GB). Then there is a problem. Some SCSI cards have a jumper for > 1GB support. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12827 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 10:54:14 Sb: #12818-HD Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Scott The DCE376 I have is a SCSI EISA version with a 660 meg. drive. It's installed on an Intel EISA motherboard. The first 500 meg was partitioned with FDISK into 2 drives. The rest normally needs UTIL.EXE from Mylex to partition. NT's disk manager can see it if partitioned this way but can't seem to do anything with it? Although currently NT is on the dos D: drive, I tried installing it on the E: drive by Mylex and it got as far as the blue screen and gave an error message "Fatal System Error: 0x00000069" Phase 1 I/O initialization failed" I appreciate your help Keith #: 13116 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 09:08:15 Sb: #12827-HD Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 Keith, Have you tried using Windows NT to format the entire drive? Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12822 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 10:46:44 Sb: #12545-TEAC FD-505 Install P Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: Billy Newport 100030,342 Billy, Have you tried using the Chinon 3.5" drive with Windows NT? How does that configuration work? What other hardware/controllers/etc in the machine? Sam Karroum [MS] #: 13120 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 10:15:12 Sb: #12822-TEAC FD-505 Install P Fm: Billy Newport 100030,342 To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X) I have a: 486DX50 256K Cache 32MB RAM PWB ISA Motherboard Adaptec 1542B SCSI controller Toshiba 3301 CDROM Wangtek DAT 1300XL DAT SCSI drive. Fujistu 2624 SCSI 500MB disk. Teac FD505 twin floppy, 3.5" configured as A 5.25" as B. ATI Ultra card SMC Etherlink II combo network card. OS/2 2.0 runs fine on the machine but its installation disks have the same problem as yours, they just hang. But DOS bootable disks do boot. Any ideas. #: 13123 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 10:21:05 Sb: BallPoint Mouse and NT Fm: Ken Blackler 100112,1040 To: Microsoft I have a Microsoft Ball Point mouse, and am left handed. NT doeasn't seem to have any way of configuring the mouse, is there any equivalent to MOUSE.INI under Windows3.1???? KEnB There is 1 Reply. #: 13128 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 10:52:48 Sb: #13123-BallPoint Mouse and NT Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Ken Blackler 100112,1040 ken, <> I don't have NT up right at the moment, but I think the Control Panel Mouse applet will allow you to switch buttons and set tracking speed etc. Art #: 12576 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 10:57:26 Sb: Creating a boot disk Fm: Cris Sagastume 76660,753 To: ALL I have a copy of build 323 and in preparation for the October beta disk I want to start compiling for STDCALL stuff. My question is, how do I create a boot disk from the disk images that are on the CD? Thanks, Cris #: 12871 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 16:11:44 Sb: #12576-Creating a boot disk Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Cris Sagastume 76660,753 Cris, What disk images are you refering to (ie. filenames) ? Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 13003 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 12:17:54 Sb: #12871-Creating a boot disk Fm: Cris Sagastume 76660,753 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) The disk image is in the DISKS directory and is called DISK1.35, I was told that I could create a boot disk from the CD, is this true? Thanks, Cris Sagastume #: 13138 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 12:03:50 Sb: #13003-Creating a boot disk Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Cris Sagastume 76660,753 (X) Cris, I believe these images are the disks that get created if you use Install Method 2 (WINNT). When doing this setup method it asks you to insert a blank, formatted, high-density floppy disk into the boot drive. As far as I can tell it is internal to WINNT.exe Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 13147 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 13:11:22 Sb: Which CDROM drv for NT? Fm: Mark Gibbons 76216,1032 To: ALL Now that I have a couple of CD-ROMs, it's time to choose a CDROM drive. I have been told that WINNT will support SCSI-2 drives only; so I am asking which is the best for the money. I also need to buy a SCSI/SCSI-2 controller that will support a HP 1Gig drive, as well as the CD-ROM drive. I am running a 486/33 with AMI BIOS, and run mostly windows applications. Having bought the 486 motherboard, a 15" SVGA monitor, and traded for the HP drive in the last 3 months, I am not overloaded with cash. But I don't want to be penny wise and compatability foolish. (I also can't do much with the MS Developer Net CD or the WIN32 preliminary CD until I get a drive.) Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Mark #: 13149 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 13:35:18 Sb: ERROR 0x0000006B Fm: VAUGHAN REID 100113,2750 To: SYSOP (X) It seems that I'm not the first to get this but all but 2 of the messages have been erased from the forum. I have an IBM Model 95 with 2 400Mb SCSI drives plus IBM internal CD-ROM, XGA, 3 1/2inch and 5 1/4 inch floppies plus 3 serial and 2 parallel ports. I installed DOS 5.0 and tried all 3 methods of installing NT. Each method seemed fine until the re-boot after stage 1. The screen said : MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT - Preliminary Release for Developers MmInit : 16064 Kb Available Memory *** Fatal System Error : 0x0000006B *** Phase 1 process initialisation failed Help!!! or do I have to wait for the next release? #: 12591 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:36:11 Sb: WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Alex, I just read part of your thread on the WD1009 ESDI controller. I have the same setup, and initially had some problems, and was able to resolve them. Your original problem description has scrolled off the board, so I will give you the solution to my problem... you tell me if it applies: The WD1009 controller sets up translation using the BIOS on the controller. It sets up the CMOS setup to drive type 1, and patches in the correct translation parameters at boot time. On my system, this confuses both WINNT and MS-DOS 5.0; neither can read the partition table correctly. On my system, the solution was to enter the translation parameters directly into the CMOS setup. For example, if the WD1009 setup shows the translate mode as 654 cylinders, 16 heads, 63 sectors per track, go into CMOS setup and program one of the user-defined drive types to match, and use it rather than type 1. If you don't have user defined drive types, you might be able to find a standard type that is close enough - my BIOS has several designed for translation controllers (none were correct however). You might want to have a DOS disk with DEBUG on it handy in case of mishap - you can have the WD BIOS take control again if need be. I hope this helps... If not, give me some more input... Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 12620 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 17:04:31 Sb: #12591-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 Dave, Thank you for the assist. I do have CMOS user definable drive types, and will give it a try. I only am concerned (and will do a full tape backup) that I don't lose stuff. The difference is that this is a WD1007V-SE2, not 1009. And DOS 5 (and 6/beta) have no problems with it at all. Nor does Win 3.1. And the CD player (which is where the problems all happen) is available to DOS 5/6 and Win 3.1 for data and audio. NT only plays audio. No data at all. The Graphical Install fails miserably. And DOS2NT installs, but NT's FileMan, even tho it shows "F:" as a CD icon, won't read data. Even more strange, is that it tells me the "media is not formatted" and asks if I want to format it. The Event Log tells me a device has "timed out" ... Does this sound like what you went through? I will wait for your response before trying ANYthing ! Again, thank you. -a. #: 12855 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 13:58:00 Sb: #12620-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) No, I guess your problem is not the same as the one I had with the 1009. If NT installs and recognizes your hard drive and boots okay, you're beyond the troubles I was having. Out of curiousity, what CD-ROM and SCSI controller are you using? Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 12967 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 09:22:10 Sb: #12855-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 Dave, The CD ROM and SCSI Controller? The CD Technology CD Porta Drive and Future Domain TM850, right off the NT coupon. Exactly as supported by NT. The problem I have/had is that I cannot do a Graphical Install. DOS2NT works, but then I cannot access the CD for data under NT. It _does_ play audio! According to MS' tech people, that's backwards from most problems. Most people who have CD Rom problems _can_ read data but _cannot_ play audio. Go figger ! BTW, setting up for Drive Typ3 47, at 618/16/63, was no sweat and the 'puter booted up as if nothing had changed. Now, I have to make more room on this monster and try (again) to install NT. I should know immediately ... well, pretty early into the install ... if it's working. It always craps out when the Graphical Install gets to the screen dialog box showing the files it's copying (starting with Canyon.mid) and the percentage bar. That's where it always dies. -a. #: 13034 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 17:31:59 Sb: #12967-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) This is obvious, but one would think that the CD-ROM offered with NT would work _perfectly_. Then again, one might have a brain tumor. :-) Perhaps the graphical install fails becuase it has trouble with the controller BIOS setting up the translation, which would be resolved by using the custom drive type. Of course, you'll know that before you read this, so that last observation is a bit pointless. Just a bit punchy this afternoon... :-( Dave p.s. I will pray to the great God of NT Graphical Install on your behalf tonight. #: 13117 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 09:13:11 Sb: #13034-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 (X) Dave, I appreciate your prayers to TGGONT. I've had too much else to do and very little inclination to fight with NT, so it hasn't been tried yet. Maybe tonight when I'm really punchy .... -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 13143 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 12:36:32 Sb: #13117-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Then I will pray again tonight. May the Force be with you, young Jedi. Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 13154 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 14:48:22 Sb: #13143-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 Thank you, Obi Wan ... #: 12593 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 12:43:06 Sb: #12286-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 Louis, Sounds like you have a 330 MB ESDI hard drive? If so, then your system is seeing the whole drive. If you are having a problem getting your setup to work with WINNT, read the message I just sent to Alex (the other guy with the WD1009 problem)... I have a 1009 myself, with a >1024 cyl. 330 Mb drive, and my system works fine after I did what I describe in that message. Dave #: 12863 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 15:17:32 Sb: #12593-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 Thanks, I will read that message and I will let you know if the trick(s) work... Yes, I have two ESDI 330 MB hard disks (Micropolis 1664-7) #: 13033 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 17:23:51 Sb: #12863-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 (X) Describe your problem to me... I never saw the description earlier. Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 13108 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 08:53:59 Sb: #13033-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 My problem was a Fatal Error 0x69 when I was booting with Windows NT. Win NT was not able to access my hard drives, due to a communication problem between the Win NT driver and my WD1009 Controler. Sector translation was enabled on the controler because my hard drives have more than 1024 cyl. To fix the problem I had to create a "user defined" t(in the computer BIOS) for my hard drives that fit with the tra of the WD1009 controler. Louis #: 13142 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 12:34:22 Sb: #13108-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 Setting the user defined-type is what I did as well, which fixed my problems. Are you still having other troubles, or is your system working as it should? #: 12602 S3/Windows NT Setup 16-Oct-92 14:14:36 Sb: #12286-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 I have been monitoring this thread and I wanted to ask if you were using the PDK release of Windows NT or are you just collecting info before getting it? If the former, are you still geting the 0x00000069 error or something else at this point. If you are it sounds like the current release may have a problem with the way your controller is doing its translation. The next release should be in your hands soon, so you may want to sit tight until then..... Devlin #: 12865 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 15:24:06 Sb: #12602-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X) using" or trying to use the PDK release of Windows NT (july 1992 release). I an not just collexting info before getting it! I begin to be really tired of the 0x69 error, and I'm beginning to think that I will wait for the release version before porting my apps to windows NT. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Also I have a question: When the Next release of Win Nt is due ? Best Regards Louis #: 12805 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:22:04 Sb: WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 David, I can not see your message because it is labeled as 'PRIVATE'. If you would like our support resend it and do not make it 'PRIVATE'. Thanks, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 12858 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 14:11:02 Sb: #12805-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) re: private message I noticed when I posted that message, it responded 'Posted Private', yet I've got no idea why it did that, or even how to do that if I wanted to. I'll try to find the message and re-post it. #: 12859 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 14:22:36 Sb: #12805-WD1009 ESDI Controller Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) The message that inadvertantly got marked private simply asked: Is the Beta CD shipping 'as we type'? If not, how soon? If I responded to a message that was private to me, would my reply be automatically marked private? I was responding to one of your other support guys, who was responding to me... Thanks, Dave #: 13194 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 20:39:19 Sb: fatal 0x00000069 Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 To: All I'm getting this error during boot. Anybody recognize it? Thanks! -- Daniel #: 12770 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 03:57:33 Sb: #12378-NT install Locks Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 Issie, <<(I still only have 4 Meg of memory)>> PMJI: but if you mean that the PC only has 4 Mb of physicall RAM I'm not surprised NT will not boot. The PDK requires 12 Mb with 16 preferred. The final retail OS will require 8 Mb. The PDK also requires a 20 Mb paging file with room to grow. Art #: 12857 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 14:09:25 Sb: #12770-NT install Locks Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, I know that NT requires 8-16 Meg, but I thought that I could at least install it now, with only 4 Meg, and then get another 4-12 Meg afterwards. This obviously doesn't work, since The bootloader doesn't even install properly. Issie There is 1 Reply. #: 12931 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 03:52:59 Sb: #12857-NT install Locks Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 Issie, <> I see what you want to do. I'm not too sure if it will work with a graphical install since much of NT loads at boot time. It still might need more than the 4 Mb you have available. I *do* know you could install NT with the DOS2NT method, but probably not get it to boot either. As I understand it, Flexboot loads NTLDR which queries the system for specific info then loads the OS. As the OS loads it demand loads system services in waves. Error recovery is almost nonexistant in early portions of the load process. Art #: 13049 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 20:41:09 Sb: #12931-NT install Locks Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, that makes sense. When I tried the NT2DOS install, everything seemed to go OK, until I tried to boot NT. Then I just got DOS booting up. Thanks for the help Issie There is 1 Reply. #: 13071 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 03:28:18 Sb: #13049-NT install Locks Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 Issie, <> Well when you get your extra memory and you can perform a graphical install I recommend you go that route. The DOS2NT install actually copies more than is needed. It's a generic install, while the graphical install is more machine specific. I'm a bit curious though. If only DOS would boot, I'd suspect that the boot.ini file was not edited properly, or flexboot was not installed by the DOS2NT batch file. There have been a very few people who seem to have had a problem with the debug script modifying their hard disk's boot sector. I'd have expected a very terse message or hex error code from the NT loader if there was not enough memory to boot. Art #: 13141 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 12:31:26 Sb: #13071-NT install Locks Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, Nope. There was not error message at all. I edited the *.INI files exactly as was mentioned in the docs. Issie. (Actually I was expecting a "not enough memory" type error. There is 1 Reply. #: 13214 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 03:13:37 Sb: #13141-NT install Locks Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 (X) Issie, <<(Actually I was expecting a "not enough memory" type error.>> So would I. Well let me know how it goed when you get the extra memory in. Art #: 13207 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 01:47:36 Sb: NT on SONY CDU535 Fm: Francois A. JOLLES 100063,775 To: ALL$ I have a DELL 486P/33 equiped with a SONY CDU535 CDROM connected through a SONY CDB-240 Host Adapter Card. When I tried to install NT from the CDROM, the system says that there is no CDROM attached. Is there anybody tried to use the same combination with success ? Do I need to have special settings on the CDROM or Adapter ? Thank you. Francois Jolles There is 1 Reply. #: 13218 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 03:34:28 Sb: #13207-NT on SONY CDU535 Fm: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 To: Francois A. JOLLES 100063,775 That CD-ROM is non-SCSI, and is therefore currently not supported by NT. There is an alternate install program called DOS2NT (I think that is the name) which may work for you, but once installed, NT will still not recognize your CD-ROM. Sorry for giving you the bad news... Steve #: 12768 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 03:38:02 Sb: Unable to run NT Setup Fm: PC Actual 100041,1677 To: SYSOP (X) We are a computer magazine from Spain. Microsoft send us the beta version of SDK. No problems in the instalation but yes in the setup. We failed to start up the NT Setup, a insuficient memory error appears in the screen and then, the systems reboot. I'm sure that it's our (and silly) error. Any suggestion? TIA, Jesus Diaz, PC Actual There is 1 Reply. #: 12802 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 08:08:34 Sb: #12768-Unable to run NT Setup Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: PC Actual 100041,1677 Jesus, Do you have at least 12 Meg in your system? If not, you need to upgrade. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 13225 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 04:18:42 Sb: #12802-Unable to run NT Setup Fm: PC Actual 100041,1677 To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X) Only 8! Arghhh! Lots of thanks, Jesus Diaz/PC Actual #: 13226 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 04:37:27 Sb: auto logon Fm: Hung Do 72040,2070 To: microsoft Can anyone tell me how to make NT automatically logon ? I want to be able to remote boot an NT machine. Thanks. #: 13160 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 15:32:00 Sb: DOS,OS2, & Windows NT Fm: Chet Kloss 72311,743 To: sysop (X) Is it possible to have DOS(with windows 3.1), OS2, and Windows NT on the same computer ? If so, is there a right and a wrong way to set it up There is 1 Reply. #: 13186 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 19:59:49 Sb: #13160-DOS,OS2, & Windows NT Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 To: Chet Kloss 72311,743 (X) See my reply to message 13085 from Howard Dunlavy. Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13231 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 05:25:51 Sb: #13186-DOS,OS2, & Windows NT Fm: Chet Kloss 72311,743 To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 Howard, there doesn't seem to be a reply to #13085. Is this the proper message number ? Or was it marked private ? .....Chet #: 13240 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 07:39:58 Sb: #12223-Windows NT Installation Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263 To: Steve Hull [ECTI] 75030,1352 I had the same problem. Try to check if DOS was installed correctly. If not reinstall DOS and then NT. This may work. Also, recheck the hw configuration. #: 13095 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 07:07:55 Sb: Installing NT for NEC 74 Fm: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615 To: Wayne Robinson 73060,702 (X) Wayne, What are the exact steps you followed? When I try to install it says that it cannot find a CD Rom and from then on I have to install with the dos command (from dos). Do you have a NEC 74? Any help would be greatly appreciated. There are 2 Replies. #: 13105 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 08:40:44 Sb: #13095-Installing NT for NEC 74 Fm: Wayne Robinson 73060,702 To: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615 No steps really - connected the NEC CDR-74 to the external SCSI port on the 95, terminated the CD player, configured the device as SCSI device (0,5), threw in the 3.5" boot diskette, booted and off I went. Wayne #: 13109 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 08:55:44 Sb: #13095-Installing NT for NEC 74 Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615 Marc, <> It's not the CD-ROM drive that is the problem. It's your SCSI card the CD-ROM drive is connected to. You need a supported SCSI card and drive (listed in the hardware compatability list) to get the graphical install to work. If your SCSI card is made by Trantor they have beta drivers available. You can get the driver from their BBS. The driver has to be installed after NT is installed via DOS2NT. It will only support data commands on your drive, audio will not work. The NEC drives are a SCSI-1 interface while NT only supports SCSI-2 audio commands. Art #: 13241 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 07:45:33 Sb: #12300-Installing NT for NEC 74 Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263 To: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615 I did but I did not experience difficulties, at least not with that part. I followed the Alternate Ways To Install (or something like that), the one with dos2nt and it worked. The CD drive was connected via LPT1 using a SCSI to PARALLEL adapter. --Dave #: 12922 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 23:42:30 Sb: #12446-UltraStor 12F Controller Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314 To: Michael Klosson 70334,1064 I had a problem with my Ultrastor 12F controller that went away when I got the most recent ROM upgrade for it. I was getting error 0x00000069 until I got the upgrade. Curiously, I got the ROM upgrade because I was trying to use the Ultrastor 32-bit FastDisk driver for Windows 3.1 (you need this in order to have 32-bit disk access if you have >1024 cylinders). If you need a ROM upgrade, the Ultrastor FastDisk driver prints out a message telling you this and Win 3.1 boots without 32-bit disk access (so this is a good way to find out if you need the upgrade). A nice side-effect of all this was that, once I installed the updated ROM's, Windows NT installed and ran just fine. Ultrastor sells the ROM upgrade for about $20. Or, if you have access to a PROM programmer, they have the hex files on their BBS (this is also where the FastDisk driver is avaiable) at 510-623-9091. This hex files worked just great for me. Hope this helps, Brad #: 13242 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 07:52:16 Sb: #12446-UltraStor 12F Controller Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263 To: Michael Klosson 70334,1064 I had the exact same problem with an UltraStor 12F card. After backing it up I redid the low level format with the 63 SECTORS/TRACK mapping mode and then reinstalled DOS and NT. It is time consuming but may just work for you. --Dave #: 13084 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 04:44:17 Sb: TMC-1680 Fm: George Wilk 100113,2621 To: Steve Fait 75300,3143 (X) Steve, I added FD1800.SYS from today's FD1800.ZIP into my drivers directory during a fresh install. This did not cure the boot problem but delayed the ***FATAL System Error 0x00000069 and ***Phase 1 I/O initialisation failure message for about 25 secs. Previous it was almost instantaneous. Any further suggestions. My configuration is: 55Mhz 486 with 32 MB memory Create Labs Inc CD and soundblaster pro board (provided by Microsoft UK as part of Network Developer program) 2 serial , 1 parallel port AMIBIOS 12/12/91 NE2000 Ethernet card at IRQ 5 ET4000 based VGA card 86-89 Future Domain Corp SCSI ROM BIOS 1800 AT V2.0 on the TMC 1680 board SCSI 7 LUN 0 CONNER CP3500 -540MB -3.5 firmware Rev2525 512 Bytes per sector (S) Thanks George. #: 13247 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 08:18:22 Sb: #13084-TMC-1680 Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156 To: George Wilk 100113,2621 If that conner drive on scsi 7 is a hard disk, try moving it to scsi 0. I thought that 7 was reserved for tape drives by the future domain bios. #: 12825 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 10:50:09 Sb: #12531-0x69 error Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 Robert, This is a phase one initialization error, which happens when Windows NT tries to talk with the HD controller. It can be caused by any number of things. Things to try: * If the card allows, slow down the DMA transfer rate. * Make sure both ends of the SCSI bus are terminated. * Make sure there are no IRQ, or memory address conflicts. * Make sure you're aren't using a faulty or un-supported driver i.e. the FD 1680 SCSI controller is supported, but there is a problem with that driver which will be fixed and posted on WinNT, Lib 2. * Make sure that your card is listed in the hardware compatibiltiy list which was provided with your release notes. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 13245 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 07:55:25 Sb: #12531-0x69 error Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263 To: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 (X) I had it, too. It may be your SCSI adapter card. --Dave There is 1 Reply. #: 13248 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 08:22:39 Sb: #13245-0x69 error Fm: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 To: David Ada-Winter 70541,263 Thanks for your reply. All is well since I switched to a BusTek card. I was even able to do the graphical install! #: 12836 S3/Windows NT Setup 19-Oct-92 11:41:57 Sb: #12424-0x0000069 InitI/O Error Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 Robert, >>I since changed from IDE to SCSi and now I have that error What SCSI controller do you have? I'm curious whether you have an unsupported card and it's causing the initialization problem. Regards, Sam Karroum [MS] #: 13249 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 08:23:32 Sb: #12836-0x0000069 InitI/O Error Fm: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X) Hi Sam, I had the 0x69 when I was using an Always card. Once I switched to a BusTek all was well. #: 13257 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 09:21:30 Sb: CDPlayer Fm: Howard Myers 76711,462 To: Microsoft I recently received the October release. Unfortunately, I can no longer get the CDPlayer to work. It detects the drive (and in fact will eject the disk), but constantly gets read errors when trying to read it. The install program obviously read from it okay. The install brochure that came with the disk says that CDAUDIO.SYS must be installed, but isn't by default. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell you how to install it (I'm assuming this is my problem). How do I get CDAUDIO.SYS to load on statup? Thanks! #: 13270 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 11:04:34 Sb: Install problems Fm: Meinhard Schmidt 100020,2762 To: all i tried and tried ... but there was no chance to finish the install procedure. NT refused to copy the files from the cd-rom (toshiba), subdirectory 'I386' to the HD (100 MB, formatted by NT). My machine is a 386-33 with 16 MB RAM. Who has an idea to help me? rgds Meinhard #: 13272 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 11:18:11 Sb: CONFIG.??? Fm: Kevin Kieller 73047,1110 To: ALL Can someone explain exactly what versions of config.??? and autoexec.??? are used and when. I installed NT on drive D: and drive C: is my boot drive. I see config.###, config.nt and config.sys on c:\. In order to try to increase the number of file handles available to DOS applications I modified some of these files; now I can not run WIN 3.1 or some DOS applications. Any ideas would be apprecaited. #: 13289 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 13:52:39 Sb: Installation Question Fm: Jimmy Truong 75430,345 To: ALL Hello, I am installing Windows NT using the alternative method, i.e. DOS2NT. After rebooting the system, Windows NT stopped with an error message "Windows NT has found only 580K of low memory. 600k of low memory is required to run Windows NT". Question: I have 16MB of memory in the system. Why did NT not boot up? What can I do to boot NT Portable Bootloader? Thanks, Jimmy #: 13297 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 14:34:54 Sb: Can't install beta sdk Fm: Dave Kolb 72410,407 To: Dave Kolb I can't install the new WNT Beta from the network. I'm running IBM DOS 5.0 on a PS/2 90 w/ 16M and 400M SCSI. I boot a dos floppy and access a Netware drive w/ the cdrom image and change to the i386 dir: w: cd sdk_nt\i386 winnt I enter w:\sdk_nt\i386 as the nt source. I enter c:\winnt as the nt destination. It looks like everything goes fine - files are copied to my blank diskette which is later booted. The diskette boots OK, detects my IBM scsi adapter checks the disk and then says: ----------------------------------------------------------------------Setup is unable to locate the hard drive partition prepared by the MS-DOS portion of setup. When you run the MS-DOS Windows NT setup program, you must specify a destination directory on a drive that is supported by Windows NT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Problem is I did I think. There was a dir on C: called $WIN_NT$.~LS that had a lot of files in it. What the problem? Thanks, #: 13102 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 07:47:54 Sb: SDK INSTALL Fm: JOE REICHMAN 70641,1503 To: Sysop (X) I have not as yet gotten a CD ROM player to install the SDK N.T., however I do have a tape backup system (COLORDADO 250) is it possible to copy the SDK N.T. AND OPERATING SYSTEM onto a TAPE and intall from there thankx much, joe #: 13308 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 16:10:01 Sb: #13102-SDK INSTALL Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: JOE REICHMAN 70641,1503 Joe, Take a look at the "DOS2NT.BAT" file on the CD. All it does is execute a debug script and then xcopy a default Windows NT tree. You could accomplish the same thing manually via tape. It would *not* be possible to run the graphical installation from tape, though. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 13309 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 16:17:54 Sb: INSTALL ON "D" DRIVE Fm: JOE REICHMAN 70641,1503 To: Sysop (X) I just purchased the WINDOWS NT OS I was told it needs 100 Megs. Is it possible to install just the WINDOW NT OS on the "C" Drive and the C Compiler, Masm the Runtime Libraries for the compiler and WINDOWS On the "D" drive thankx Joe Reichman #: 13325 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 21:30:48 Sb: Installation Requirement Fm: Adam Krantz 71461,757 To: ALL Having just got a CD-ROM drive, I was anxious to install the July release of NT, but I wanted to be sure I could still use my machine fairly reliably with it installed since I don't have another to use. I have 8M of Ram and a 120M hard drive. Is this enough? #: 13085 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 05:27:06 Sb: OS/2 & WinNT & DOS Setup Fm: Howard Dunlavy 76337,1151 To: All I want to install both OS/2 2.0 and the pre-beta version of Windows NT on my computer. Microsoft recommends NOT trying to configure a computer so that you can switch between both DOS and OS/2. I am wondering if anyone has done this. If you have, is it better to use the Dual Boot or Boot Manager setup for OS/2? -Howard #: 13185 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 19:59:45 Sb: #13085-OS/2 & WinNT & DOS Setup Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 To: Howard Dunlavy 76337,1151 Hello Howard, I successfully installed both NT and OS/2 2.0 and can go between them and DOS at will. This is what I did. 1. First I installed WINNT from the CD/ROM using the graphical installer. Although this may not be relevant, I partitioned my disk into two partitions. NT I directed to the D drive, although the boot stuff ends up in the root of C. NT has its own scheme for the user to select NT or "previous operating system" (DOS). As installed, it defaults to NT in 30 seconds unless you arrow down to the Previous Operating Sstem line and hit enter. I found a text file in the root directory called BOOT.INI and changed the default for which OS to boot and also lowered the wait time to 5 seconds, so that I get DOS as the default unless I do something in 5 seconds. I also ran the program, ?.EXE, in NT to change the path that NT uses for its Paging file from the root of C to the root of D. I also changed my DOS Autoexec.bat to erase the NT paging file, so it doesn't take up 23MB except when NT is running. 2. Next I installed OS/2, and chose the dual boot. The OS/2 user I talked to whose opinion I trust advised away from the Boot Manager. for reasons completely independent of NT. After OS/2 installation, OS/2 boots up on power on. There is an OS/2 app called DUAL BOOT that will switch over to DOS booting so that next boot up DOS is loaded. There is a DOS application invokd with \os2\boot /os2 which gets me back to OS/2. Actually, it's not DOS that is booted, but rather the NT startup loader, which gives me the choice of NT or the previous (DOS) described above. 3. To get to OS/2 you have to first boot into DOS. Once in DOS you can run \os2\boot /os2. I can't go directly from NT to OS/2 without passing DOS. But I can still go directly to Jail without passing GO, so I have my link with the past. Bob #: 13327 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 21:49:42 Sb: #13185-OS/2 & WinNT & DOS Setup Fm: Howard Dunlavy 76337,1151 To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 Robert, Thanks for the response. In the OS/2 forum someone pointed me to an article in the October issue of Windows magazine that describes how to install DOS, NT, OS/2 1.3 and OS/2 2.0. Unfortunately my computer died yesterday and I am waiting for some replacement parts. -Howard #: 13048 S3/Windows NT Setup 20-Oct-92 20:26:51 Sb: NT Loader Problem Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 To: anyone After installing NT I boot up under NT just fine but is I try to switch back to DOS I get Non-system disk or disk error, replace and press any key when ready If I boot from a diskette and do a SYS C: I have no problems booting DOS. Any ideas? There is 1 Reply. #: 13080 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 04:07:50 Sb: #13048-NT Loader Problem Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 ken, <> It sounds to me like the boot.ini file might not have been edited properly. Take a look at the entry for the DOS entry. It should look something like .. c:\ = "MS-DOS" ... The thing to make sure of is that the drive letter is correct. Perhaps you changed it when you editied the file from a DOS2NT install. You should also look and make sure that the file bootsect.dos is located on your C:\ directory. Art #: 13175 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 18:47:28 Sb: #13080-NT Loader Problem Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) BOOT.INI is correct and BOOTSECT.DOS is in the root directory. The program BOOTSECT that I downloaded "Can't read the partition information"!! I'm going to check the BOOTSECT program out. There is 1 Reply. #: 13215 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 03:15:04 Sb: #13175-NT Loader Problem Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 Ken, <> That sounds ominous. What type of disk controller and hard disk do you have? Art #: 13291 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 13:57:28 Sb: #13215-NT Loader Problem Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I have an IDE controller and a MAXSTOR 340mb drive (brand new). I have traced through the BOOTSECT program and I think I have a BIOS problem (Chips & Technology). When the program issues int 13 to read the boot sector there is NOT an error indicated (carry flag is not set) but the number of sectors read (in AL) is x'50' which the program takes as an error (it only requested 1 sector). Same thing happens on a write. I am going to do a littlemore research and then I think I will need to check with C&T; are they on CompuServe? There is 1 Reply. #: 13335 S3/Windows NT Setup 23-Oct-92 03:14:42 Sb: #13291-NT Loader Problem Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 Ken, <> Well, I'm glad to hear that you have at least identified the problem, and it's cause. I don't think C&T has a forum here. They might visit the IBMHW forums and you could ask the sysop there. If you can identify the paticular bios and motherboard you might want to upload a bug report to MS. They have a form in lib 1. That way maybe they can fix it on their end in future releases. Art #: 13122 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 10:20:27 Sb: #13048-NT Loader Problem Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 (X) Which method did you use, CD-based or DOS2NT? Sam Karroum [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 13176 S3/Windows NT Setup 21-Oct-92 18:48:57 Sb: #13122-NT Loader Problem Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X) I used the CD-based method. #: 13213 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 02:41:39 Sb: Emergency Disk Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546 To: Sysop (X) I find myself needing the expected functionality of the emergency disk. I installed a device driver that did not take to NT. My machine boots with an uncaught kernel mode exception 1e. So, I want to recover my previous state. How can I do this with the emergency disk (as created by the October release). It doesn't boot, so what good is it? Marc Singer -- Straylight Software There is 1 Reply. #: 13220 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 03:49:18 Sb: #13213-Emergency Disk Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 Marc, <> All you need to do is boot DOS and rename the device driver to a different name. NT will not find it to load, so... At least I was able to do this with the Trantor SCSI driver, and NT then booted allowing me to use regedit. Now in the July release the emergency boot disk functionality is not fully usable. Are you sure you have the October release? As far as I know it will not be shipping untill the end of the month. Your CD should have the date of the release on it. Art #: 13301 S3/Windows NT Setup 22-Oct-92 15:04:15 Sb: #13220-Emergency Disk Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I have more information on this. First, I am using the October release. The emergency disk support appears to be complete except for the fact that it requires that the CD-ROM be accessible to Windows NT. I dicovered that the setup diskette created by Windows NT when you use the DOS-based setup has an option to do recovery. Press R at the first prompt and it should recover, but it returns an error because the trantor device is not supported. Argh. The second problem was that I (foolishly) put the NT system in a partition inaccessible to DOS. This makes it impossible to make modifications to the system without NT. Perhaps on the sixth installation, I will be able to work. By the way, I would still like to know how I am supposed to use the Emergency Repair disk without one of the supported SCSI adaptors. Anyone have an idea? Marc Singer -- Straylight Software There is 1 Reply. #: 13337 S3/Windows NT Setup 23-Oct-92 03:22:20 Sb: #13301-Emergency Disk Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 Marc, <> Well I don't know if I should offer you my condolences or adulation since you have the Oct release before I do. <> Well, since I don't have the release i can only offer possibilities. But if the emergency disk has a editable list of drivers to load (maybe with a regedit utility, or if it is an ascii file) you could add the current Trantor driver. I have a Trantor driver working with the July release. Or if the boot disk has an editable file to select the NT partition like the July boot disk (for install) had you could maybe change the partition and drive to use you local (hard drive) version of NT (so no CD is needed). You could xperiment with these type of solutions... Art #: 13360 S3/Windows NT Setup 23-Oct-92 08:41:10 Sb: NT NOT Fm: Pete Fisher 76506,3134 To: Sysop Hi, as will be obvious from my questions, I'm quite an amateur to Windows development, but am interested and have bought a lot of software and a CD-ROM (NEC CDR-74) unit. I currently have 2 CD's purchased from Microsoft: 1) Developer Network, Preliminary Release - which works fine in my Windows 3.1 environment. 2) MS WIN 32 SDK for Windows NT, Preliminary Version July 1992 - which I'm confused about how to install. Does it have NT on it, or do I need a separate disk? I'm running DOS 5, QEM 6.+, & Stacker 2.0, and my non-stacked actual physical hard disk space is very limited, so I'll want to keep as much on the CD as possible. Any tips? Thanks for the help! Pete Fisher #: 12605 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps 16-Oct-92 14:30:24 Sb: #11948-Word 4 Win install Fm: Oscar M. Herrera 71174,1204 To: Scott LaFond 71370,533 (X) Steve, I rely had no problem loading it at all. if you have flex boot running you might want to try installing under win31 and the new icon it from nt. I just tried it again an had no problem. Oscar #: 13047 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps 20-Oct-92 20:15:06 Sb: Bug running DOS Epsilon Fm: Eric V. Smith 70621,3367 To: sysop (X) I assume this has already been reported, but I'll submit it anyway. I am running the DOS version of Epsilon 6.0. If I exit Epsilon (Ctrl-C Ctrl-X), anything I type ahead until cmd.exe regains control is lost. This is the same behaviour as under DOS. When I re-execute Epsilon, all of the characters that I had typed ahead when I was exiting the PREVIOUS run of Epsilon get typed into the buffer, as if I had just typed them. Hope this isn't too confusing. #: 13005 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps 20-Oct-92 12:42:45 Sb: Epsilon Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546 To: Sysop (X) The October release runs my DOS & OS/2 applications much better than before. Still, it cannot run the background process for Epsilon 6.0 for DOS, nor Epsilon 5.0 for OS/2. Do you want to know about all of the applications I have that do not run properly? #: 13159 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps 21-Oct-92 15:29:42 Sb: #13005-Epsilon Fm: Cohagan 74375,313 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 (X) Marc- Is the "October" release available yet - or do you have a pre-pre-release copy? Bill There is 1 Reply. #: 13211 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps 22-Oct-92 02:41:30 Sb: #13159-Epsilon Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546 To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X) I got the October release on Monday, but I do not know the status of the release mailing. #: 12658 S5/32-bit Windows Apps 17-Oct-92 07:44:45 Sb: #12291-winnt better w/EISA? Fm: John Richardson 70541,672 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) Actually, the card does not. The device driver has the capability to copy the data when an address is above 16meg. There are only 24 address lines on the ISA bus, so only the first 16 meg of memory is directly available via master mode. On the other hand, EISA has available a full 32 bits of address and can address 4G. If you have a non-mastering controller that uses the motherboard DMA, then newer EISA machines such as the INTEL allow addresses above 16 Meg by defining additional address bits for the DMA page registers. By using the EISA "fly-by-mode" with updated software drivers, decent performance can be had from an ISA SCSI controller if it can support the DMA slave cycles properly. JR #: 12681 S5/32-bit Windows Apps 17-Oct-92 12:05:03 Sb: How do you get LIB list? Fm: Bob Byron 70107,1734 To: All I was wondering how to get a listing via LIB. I was trying to list the libraries in my \mstools\lib directory. When I tried the command: LIB -VERBOSE MPR.LIB and LIB -LIST MPR.LIB all I got back was the "MPR.DEF" listed a couple of dozen times. Now detail what-so-ever. So, how do you do a simple library listing? Thanks, Bob #: 13096 S5/32-bit Windows Apps 21-Oct-92 07:13:59 Sb: Linking DLL _main reques Fm: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615 To: Microsoft Support I have a msdos dll which I recompiled using CL386 for windows NT. The compile works perfectly (no errors nor warnings). When I try to link using the example link commands from the samples (DEB sample), I get a link error stating that _main is not found and requested from CTROS. I do not have a _main or main, I have a LibMain and have declared that as the entry point. Can you help me with this. What is _main requested? Do I need to change the link statement? Thanks for your assistance. #: 13098 S5/32-bit Windows Apps 21-Oct-92 07:17:31 Sb: RAND_MAX Fm: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615 To: Microsoft Support I am porting to windows NT and I have found that the RAND_MAX constant in the new header files is still set to a 16 bit value, i.e. the largest random number that can be generated is 32767. Is this correct? Under a 32 bit compiler much larger random numbers should be generated which would make the random number generator of a much higher quality. So my question is, is RAND_MAX wrongly defined in the header file and are larger random numbers generated, or is RAND_MAX currently correct and are only small random numbers generated? In the latter case, that is a bug in the compiler, which should be corrected before going to beta. I hope this helps you and I appreciate your help too. #: 13004 S5/32-bit Windows Apps 20-Oct-92 12:22:54 Sb: NT EXE structure Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Harald Pitro 100024,2662 >Who can helps me to find the new structure of 32-bit-EXE/DLL files for >Windows >NT? A message posted in the Tools section of the MSWIN32 forum will help you find the new structure. >Thanks >Harald BTW, the docs for the Beta version of NT will also have that information. Goodluck, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13144 S5/32-bit Windows Apps 21-Oct-92 12:50:48 Sb: #13004-NT EXE structure Fm: Harald Pitro 100024,2662 To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X) Krishnan, Thanks for your help. But I cannot find the proper message. Can you help me again? Thanks and Greats Harald #: 12940 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 20-Oct-92 06:08:35 Sb: Where to find POSIX.FAQ Fm: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150 To: 71075,3222 (X) Thank you for your reply Krishnan, I tried to find the POSIX.FAQ file in the OS/2, POSIX Apps. section and couldn't find it ! Can you verify if it's there and if so, tell me how to find it. It's probably because I'm new to CompuServe. Thank You ! There is 1 Reply. #: 12965 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 20-Oct-92 09:21:23 Sb: #12940-Where to find POSIX.FAQ Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150 >Thank you for your reply Krishnan, I tried to find the POSIX.FAQ file in the >OS/2, POSIX Apps. section and couldn't find it ! Can you verify if it's there >and if so, tell me how to find it. It's probably because I'm new to >CompuServe. > Thank You ! Message# 11502 and 11503 in the POSIX section is what you are looking for. The subject of the message is POSIX.FAQ. Goodluck, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13161 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 21-Oct-92 15:45:25 Sb: #12965-Where to find POSIX.FAQ Fm: Louis Kahn 70473,1012 To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X) Those messages are no longer available in the active message base, what archive file has this info.? Thanks, Louis #: 13111 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 21-Oct-92 08:57:44 Sb: #12323-Running OS2 app Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Dan Sullivan 76327,1534 Please follow #11890. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13230 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 22-Oct-92 05:16:59 Sb: #13111-Running OS2 app Fm: Dan Sullivan 76327,1534 To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X) 11890 has scrolled off, please repeat it. Thanks in advance Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 13253 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 22-Oct-92 08:58:52 Sb: #13230-Running OS2 app Fm: Robin Wilson 70703,2221 To: Dan Sullivan 76327,1534 Would it be in the zip files under winnt archives? Thanks for your help. #: 13112 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 21-Oct-92 08:57:49 Sb: #12520-Running OS2 app Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Robin Wilson 70703,2221 >I also have a problem in this area, when I try to run a win16 or os2 app i am >dumped back into NT... >Any help would be helpfull >thanks Please follow message # 11890. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13252 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 22-Oct-92 08:53:12 Sb: Running OS2 app Fm: Robin Wilson 70703,2221 To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 thanks #: 13359 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps 23-Oct-92 08:16:00 Sb: SQL 4.2 Install on WinNT Fm: James McDaniel 71075,415 To: all I posted the file SQLOS2.TXT in section 1 of the Library. This text file is a section from the SQL Server SDK for Windows NT release notes. It states that installing SQL Server for OS/2 version 4.2 on the OS/2 subsystem of the July pre-release of Windows NT often fails, and it contains a "manual install" procedure for completing the install by hand. Sincerely, James McDaniel Microsoft SQL Server Support #: 13017 S7/Utilities/Applets 20-Oct-92 14:12:35 Sb: #12076-utilities/applets Fm: Sanjeev Katariya [MS] 71075,637 To: matt maberino 70162,1772 Matt, There is no file PIFEDIT.EXE or PIFEDIT.HLP in the July prerelease of Windows NT, but the October beta includes these. They are located in the \SYSTEM directory. #: 13022 S7/Utilities/Applets 20-Oct-92 15:30:27 Sb: Music CD Bug Fm: Sanjeev Katariya [MS] 71075,637 To: Daniel Dunkel 76550,716 Daniel, There is currently no problem report about this specific problem you are seeing. There is one issue, however, regarding the hard drive light flickering while the CD is playing, due to the fact that when the CD is scanned for position (every 5 seconds or so) the hard drive receives the command as well. Are you experiencing this behavior as well as the halting music? Also, please check the CD-ROM and hard drive for a possible interrupt conflict. If the hard drive were attempting to use the same IRQ as the CD-ROM, the resulting conflict could cause bad behavior on one of the devices. #: 12896 S7/Utilities/Applets 19-Oct-92 18:53:46 Sb: NT Utilities Fm: Rick Brant 70322,2160 To: all I am helping to develop a reports system based in C to run against very large (Maybe up to a Gig). We are currently using VMS and Windows on DOS. The reports are currently running on VMS returning the results to the PC. We are utilizing the VMS sort/merge facility to do some of our record selection. I would rather use strait C but due to time constaints we went with the utility. My question is... are their going to be any such utilities delivered with NT? Also does anyone have source for a great sort\ merge facility??? Thanks #: 13133 S7/Utilities/Applets 21-Oct-92 11:39:54 Sb: #12896-NT Utilities Fm: Thomas Curran 72210,2424 To: Rick Brant 70322,2160 (X) Rick, I think you should be speaking to the Software AG people (ADABAS). I am not sure how "official" this is, but maybe they can give you more info. If youre interested we can do a private excvhange with the developers out there. (I am working on something too!) #: 13168 S7/Utilities/Applets 21-Oct-92 17:29:36 Sb: Postscrpt viewer in Lib4 Fm: Jeff Lundblad 73537,1203 To: all I have uploaded a beta version of a postscript viewer. The postscript "interpreter" has been appended to my shareware ASCII file viewer. The program as a whole features a File-Manager type file open interface, as well as printing, file find (grep subset), and text find. The "interpreter" processes text, text positioning, and page ejects for the July NT pre-release files. The "interpreted" file can be printed on a non-postscript printer with adequate results (there is no attempt to match fonts). In fact, I get more information out of at least one of the .C00 files this way than I do sending the postscript file itself to my HPIIIp with a postscript cart. This is a Windows 3.1 program! I have not actually tried this version under NT because my disk that had NT on it died and hasn't been fixed yet. It should work under Windows 3.0 if you have SHELL.DLL - but I haven't tried that lately either (same story). Look for LI13T5.ZIP in Lib 4. This is a beta. I'm open to feedback. Jeff. #: 13179 S7/Utilities/Applets 21-Oct-92 19:21:43 Sb: Tape Backup Fm: Rick Brant 70322,2160 To: all I have recently aquired a TTI CTS-8510 8mm Tape unit. It emulates either an Exabyte EXB-8200/EXB-8500, a DEC TK50Z, an IBM 2.3 GB or the native TTI 8510. In each mode there are several additional options Even byte disconnect, parity check, short file marks etc... Are any of these drives supported under NT? What settings are appropraite? I set it up as an EXB-8500 and attempted to use the Backup in the Disk Admin applet. It would backup 4 file (the first 4 of any selection) and then report a fatal error. No help in the logs.... Any help out here ?? Thanks. #: 13304 S7/Utilities/Applets 22-Oct-92 15:38:14 Sb: #12141-mep tabbing Fm: Ray Mann [Microsoft] 71075,637 To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066 Bob, I am not positive exactly what behavior you are seeing. Do you mean that when you attempt to insert a tab into a line of text, the cursor merely jumps ahead without inserting the tab? #: 12901 S7/Utilities/Applets 19-Oct-92 19:38:09 Sb: Capturing Screens Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 To: Microsoft Support I'm completing an article on Windows NT, and would like to capture a series of screens. Is HIJAAK compatible with Windows NT, or are there any undocumented utilities I can use to create a .PCX file of a screen? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Louis Columbus #: 13305 S7/Utilities/Applets 22-Oct-92 15:38:18 Sb: #12901-Capturing Screens Fm: Ray Mann [Microsoft] 71075,637 To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 (X) Louis, I am aware of no screen capture utility currntly shipping with Windows NT, nor of any testing done with third-party screen capture utilities such as HIJAAK. Ray Mann, Windows NT Beta Support #: 13306 S7/Utilities/Applets 22-Oct-92 15:38:24 Sb: cd player Fm: Ray Mann [Microsoft] 71075,637 To: Dan Barrett 75070,2231 Dan, I have been looking into your problem here, and I have found a CD with an ID that starts with a letter. Unfortunately, I was unable to reproduce your problem; the CD is playing right now. Perhaps that entry in CDPLAYER.INI is invalid, or maybe the player is actually being confused by a physical problem on the disk. Also, there have been some code changes in the October build of the Windows NT Beta, perhaps they will make the difference - that is what I am running. Ray Mann, Windows NT Beta Support #: 12923 S7/Utilities/Applets 19-Oct-92 23:42:35 Sb: #12368-Emacs for WinNT Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314 To: Alex Bronstein 75070,2452 There is a port of Gnu Emacs to OS/2 that is available on the Internet on ftp-os2.nmsu.edu. I have downloaded it but haven't tried running it under NT yet, because I only have FAT partitions at the moment, and this port has a number of filenames that are longer than 8.3 (they tell you to install it on an HPFS partition, and that you have to use the OS/2- specific version of pkunzip to unzip it). In theory, though, it should work. I have one of my OS/2-fanatic friends looking into whether it is possible to coerce it into working from a FAT partition. Also, the source is available on ftp-os2, so if there are any truly bold souls out there... --Brad Also at >INTERNET:brad@huey.jpl.nasa.gov (I read this every day as opposed to CIS, which I check every few days). There is 1 Reply. #: 12938 S7/Utilities/Applets 20-Oct-92 05:26:19 Sb: #12923-Emacs for WinNT Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Brad Hines 76520,3314 Would that, perhaps, be the same version which is ported to OS/2 2.0? (The same code file, perhaps?) The OS2DF1 forum has the code for downloading. That's if you want to spend about 1 1/2 hours at 2400 BPS . . . . Someone else has done a port for the MicroEmacs to NT. Atleast it works with a FAT file system. Have you tried NTFS (on a second partition/drive) rather than HPFS? I'm just curious . . . This is not a suggestion but a question. #: 13329 S7/Utilities/Applets 23-Oct-92 00:13:12 Sb: #12938-Emacs for WinNT Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314 To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X) Yes, this is the OS/2 2.0 version of Emacs. I haven't tried it on NTFS yet. I think when the October release comes (hopefully sometime in the next week), I'll reformat my NT volume to NTFS and then try it out. --Brad There is 1 Reply. #: 13342 S7/Utilities/Applets 23-Oct-92 05:30:19 Sb: #13329-Emacs for WinNT Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725 To: Brad Hines 76520,3314 I have finally met a brave soul . #: 12939 S7/Utilities/Applets 20-Oct-92 05:43:31 Sb: #12368-Emacs for WinNT Fm: Glenn Ford 70414,321 To: Alex Bronstein 75070,2452 Alex, I grabbed EmacsNT from WINNT library area. Forget which library. Use IBMFF (go ibmff) and keyword on EMACS and {WIN}NT glenn #: 12636 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 19:14:13 Sb: #12536-NEC CD & which ISA card Fm: Mitchell C. Sharp 76376,332 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) Thanks. I will check into the 1540. There is 1 Reply. #: 12642 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 20:48:18 Sb: #12636-NEC CD & which ISA card Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Mitchell C. Sharp 76376,332 (X) no problem. happy i could help. Darren #: 12663 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 09:09:54 Sb: #12352-Soundblaster CD-ROM Fm: John A. Gallagher 74216,270 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Terence, Thanks for your reply. I -do- understand your position and hope that I will be greeted with some good news in the not too distant future. I am more frustrated with Creative Labs than with Microsoft. I have been trying to get information from them with calls since their BBS does not seem to provide a means for leaving messages I have had difficulty reaching them, have left messages without getting a response, etc. I know many people trying to make informed decisions on purchases, especially considering the rapid advances in CD-ROM technology. Many feel -forced- to purchase a non state of the art drive such as the Toshiba 3301 since it is at least supported by both you and IBM with its OS/2 2.0. They feel that they will likely wind up purchasing a new drive within a year once support becomes clear. I already have the Creative Labs drive, which I would like to use until things "shake out" but am becoming more and more frustrated. I fear that soon I will not even be able install products with it. Again, thanks for your concern. I hope that -everone- will become more forthcoming once the beta appears. #: 12649 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 22:31:09 Sb: Current List? Fm: Mark E. Snyder 71670,2724 To: Anyone This may be a dumb question, but where is the current list of supported hardware? Has it been, and/or when will it be updated to include the supported hardware for the October release? FYI, I can understand all the non-disclosure stuff. Anyone who has ever dealt with major hardware/software firms understands. But can you at least tell us when you'll be able to tell us? Come on, don't keep all the good information to yourselves! Sharing is good! :) Mark E. Snyder 71670,2724 There is 1 Reply. #: 12679 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 11:11:58 Sb: #12649-Current List? Fm: Lawrence E. Oliver 71450,2235 To: Mark E. Snyder 71670,2724 (X) Mark - Lib # 1, file: 0992hw.txt. This may be updated sometime within the next 2-3 weeks, if the information on the shipping of the 2nd release/beta is correct, i.e. the end of this month. LARRY #: 12705 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 22:37:25 Sb: Best network card (?) Fm: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52 To: All A reliable source has told me that the 3Com Etherlink III cards are what the MS NT developers are/will be using. This NIC apparently combines great performance, easy installation, and a great price (I've been quoted sub-$150 on small quantities - dealer prices even less). Makes sense that the card which will be connecting all the MS guys working on NT would be a good choice - I would imagine that it might be one of the more thoroughly debugged drivers! Just for your information. . . #: 12747 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 19:39:17 Sb: MPII and WINNT Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: All I have been trying to determine the usuability of a WIN 3.1 (maybe 3.0, but worked real well in 3.1) application Microphone II, a terminal program. I got it all installed (from within NT) and opened it up and went to the Communications settings panel and switched it to COM 2 and 2400 baud. All other settings were left untouched; Hayes Modem, etc. Upon save and exit MPII locked up hard. I cannot quit MPII nor logoff WINNT from the task list and cannot end the NT session without doing a Reset. Use of this particular App is not critical but I spent the weekend giving NT a thorough going over and this is the only hang I have to date. I am concerned I may have a hardware interrupt conflict, although that is curious as I am sending this to you via TAPCIS using the same COM port. Had any quirkiness with terminal programs reported in to date that may shed some light on my minor problem? On a more positive note I have gotten TAPCIS (obviously), Excel, and WINWORD running famously, albeit slower than in WIN3.1 BOX is a Clone running AMI 1991 BIOS, 486-50DX Isa board, 20 megs RAM, NON-SCSI II Sony CD-ROM, 242 MB IDE HD, 1 par. and 2 serial ports. I have both the Sony Controller and a Microtek Scanner controller installed for info. Below are the error messages from the Event.LOG. I emptied it (the log) out just prior to today's session for this purpose. There were yesterday, other Elnkii reports in the log, so I did the IRQ change in the Release notes, from IRQ3 to IRQ5. This APP only, did not function prior to the IRQ change, nor after. [What's an Elnkii, anyway?] 10/18/92 06:26:01 PM machinename Error None 2019 *** Elnkii The description for Event ID ( 2019 ) in Source ( machinename ) could not be found. It contains the following insertion string(s): Elnkii. #: 12633 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 18:25:21 Sb: Controlers Fm: David England 73700,1367 To: All Hi, I'm desperate. My SCSI controler died today and I need to buy one. How about a sneak peek at the new HW compatibility list so I can get something that works first time. If not how about some advice on controlers. I have a 33mhz 486 with an ISA bus and I need my 450 meg of HD. Thanks David There are 2 Replies. #: 12722 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 10:54:34 Sb: #12633-Controlers Fm: C Straghalis [UltraStor] 71005,1655 To: David England 73700,1367 (X) David, One preview...the UltraStor SCSI controllers will be supported on the next release. This includes the 14F (our ISA SCSI-2FAST controller). Le tme know if you would like sdome literature...or just e-mail me your address. Regards, Chris Straghalis UltraStor Corp. #: 12806 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 08:26:18 Sb: #12633-Controlers Fm: Billy Newport 100030,342 To: David England 73700,1367 Adaptec controllers are supported now and are pretty cheap. I got one in mine with a CD-ROM, DAT and disk with no problems. #: 12655 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 05:54:58 Sb: #12516-SCSI support/IRQ issues Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Will DOS2NT still be available in the Oct release? I do not have a SCSI CD-ROM. #: 12882 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 17:35:56 Sb: #12655-SCSI support/IRQ issues Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X) Denis, DOS2NT.BAT is not in the October release. Instead we have an alternative (and much superior) interactive option invoked by "winnt.exe" at a DOS prompt. The prefered meathod is still to use a boot floppy and install from the CD-ROM, though, but "winnt.exe" can be used if your CD-ROM is not supported. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12881 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 17:35:51 Sb: #12544-SCSI support/IRQ issues Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 (X) Steve, I expect you won't have any trouble with the drive or controller themselves. (It is always possible to have conflicts with other hardware, of course.) I also expect audio to work for you as that situation has improved somewhat as well. (If it doesn't, you know where to find us!) Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12883 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 17:36:04 Sb: Hardware compatibility Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Don Apperson 72700,1042 (X) Don, Unfortunately, I cannot say with 100% certainty either way. The question boils down to whether your video is 100% compatible with the VGA standard. If so, then you should be able to run Windows NT in VGA mode. For higher modes, you would need Windows NT drivers written for the video board. Since I have not heard of too many video related problems (at VGA mode), I expect you will be able to run in VGA mode but the possibility does exist that exotic hardware might pose a problem. Sorry I can't be more definite than that, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12884 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 17:36:13 Sb: #11793-Driver Stuff Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: H.T. GRIFFIN, II 72340,127 Hi, I don't show either board on my list for the October release as far as tested SCSI controllers. As for the wave files, it is not clear from your note which files do not work--the long or the short? Have you tried the suggestions in the ntfaq.txt file in library 1? The following is taken from there: ________ The SoundBlaster/AudioPro cards are known to have compatibility problems with some fast 486 systems and some system chip sets. You may be unable to run such a device on such a system. Before surrendering this as solely a hardware problem, you may in fact have an IRQ or DMA channel conflict with another device. Either move these setting on the other device or on the sound card. The recommended settings for the sound card is DMA 1, IRQ 7 and port 220h (note however that LPT1 also often uses this IRQ). If you are unable to resolve the conflict you can disable one of the devices in the Registry. The utility REGEDIT can be used to alter the Registry Database. Note: in many cases you must be logged on as 'Administrator' to alter some of the Registry settings. Hardware configuration settings can be altered under the Registry branch 'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE->SYSTEM>ControlSet001->Services'. The SoundBlaster can be disabled/enables by changing the entry for the sub-branch Sndblst->Start to 0x4/0x1. Warning: REGEDIT is a very powerful utility which will allow you to directly change your Registry: USE THIS TOOL AT YOUR OWN RISK. The preferred work around to this problem is to reinstall with the correct configuration. Using REGEDIT incorrectly can put your machine in a state in which you will have to reinstall to correct. We do not support REGEDIT, nor the changes you make with it. We simply offer it as a faster, but unsupported, fix to this problem. ______ Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12942 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 06:38:37 Sb: #12884-Driver Stuff Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Terrence, The SoundBlaster Pro supports interrupt 10d (or 0Ah if you prefer). It is a great way to get it out of the way, as it were. Works well under DOS/Win as well. The 0-7 interrupt range is crowded enuf as it is. John #: 12570 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 10:03:28 Sb: #12529-16mb limit ? Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John: Thanks for your clear reply. I wish that DMA capabilities of EISA systems had been pushed more by the press. I think that this would have influenced the purchases that I have made over the last year. Carlen There is 1 Reply. #: 12582 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 12:21:27 Sb: #12570-16mb limit ? Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 (X) Carlen, I don't think anyone really foresaw the need for DMA over 16MB would be on us so quickly. Even on our intial UNIX Sys V/386 relases we didn't think it would be an issue. It took a cusotmer with a custom X-Windows app that required about 32-36MB of RAM to makes us understand the issue. John There is 1 Reply. #: 12737 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 17:46:19 Sb: #12582-16mb limit ? Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John, What happened to the spped of the system when you added 36mb of ram to the computer? How great of a speed hit did you take ? Carlen There is 1 Reply. #: 12787 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 06:10:23 Sb: #12737-16mb limit ? Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 Carlen, Once you got the system pass the memory overcommit stage the overall system performance only took a slight hit. But when it was overcommitted, sigh.. John #: 12595 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 12:51:34 Sb: #12556-16mb limit ? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X) John: gets better. Just got the new ATI graphics Ultra Pro 2 meg (was already for speed and everthing). problem one: memory has to be installed for the board & guess where (in the lower 16 so to speak). Guess what they told me: take some of the memory out, the ISA bus cannot support over 16 megs. So, the old DMA story continues at ATI. They have new drivers coming out (sort of like your check is in the mail) soon. Moral here: card is going back. I said to them, I beta test for a lot of hardware & software vendors, can I test the drivers for you (their reply -- we have had bad luck with beta testers so most is done in house! what a pile of crap). First Orchid & now ATI, geting scary! bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12807 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 09:55:06 Sb: #12595-16mb limit ? Fm: joe parness 70363,1137 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Is it really true that the ISA bus cannot support over 16 megs ? Or is this just a vendor specific problem ? #: 12835 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 11:41:33 Sb: #12807-16mb limit ? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: joe parness 70363,1137 (X) RE: ISA and 16 megs of ram. This is a difficult question to answer since it is setup specific. DMA access on the ISA bus is limited to 16 meg. This in no way implies that only 16 megs can be addressed. many newer boards allow such addresses to occur through a double paging system. In doing so, there can be a slowdown but it does work. I am currently using 20 megs and NT recognizes it all as does win 3.1 and dos. This problem is only encountered in DMA addresses. Hope this helps. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 12838 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 12:19:41 Sb: #12835-16mb limit ? Fm: joe parness 70363,1137 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Will the DMA limitation exist on local bus boxes ? How can I avoid this limitation ? There is 1 Reply. #: 12943 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 06:38:41 Sb: #12838-16mb limit ? Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452 To: joe parness 70363,1137 Joe, It depends on the LB implementation. But all your DMA devices would have to be on the LB. One shouldn't make too big of an issue out of this. Where it was real problematic is in the early OS/2 release. OS/2 refused to recognize RAM over 16MB in this case. By buffering DMA thru the 0-16MB region it can be worked around, with some level of perf hit. If the system is memory overcommitted and paging to beat the band, the perf hit is painful. Simple solution, add more RAM. If you think you are going to be running an environment that requires more than 16MB of RAM on a consistent basis, look at EISA or MCA (or a UNIX workstation and be done with it ;->) John #: 12781 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 04:19:27 Sb: #12477-16mb limit ? Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 Carlen, something else you should be aware of - IDE interfaced disk drives - and any based on the old AT controller - don't do DMA at all - the transfer of data from disk controller to memory is through the processor. This means that these systems do not have any problem with memory above 16Mb, even if they're ISA systems. BTW EISA's memory addressing limit is "only" 4Gb and we've already had one guy on this forum wanting a 5Gb app.... Andy Champ ICL. There is 1 Reply. #: 12782 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 04:47:37 Sb: #12781-16mb limit ? Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 To: Andy Champ 100064,2267 PMJI ...Which raises the question of which architecture do you look at if you want to address >4 gig ?? Tony. #: 12973 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 09:32:04 Sb: #12782-16mb limit ? Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156 To: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 DEC Alpha? #: 12640 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 20:48:03 Sb: #12421-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) If he's not interested in the porta drive I might be. That is if you throw in the computer too. Darren There is 1 Reply. #: 12672 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 10:08:06 Sb: #12640-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) I have a palmtop you might be interested in. It doesn't have a connection to the CD, but it does have a cute Citicard pasted to the back, and runs on solar energy. That's what I'd throw in ! Seems he's not interested in the Porta (Potty) Drive. Nobody is. -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 12701 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 22:13:55 Sb: #12672-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) I'll trade you for just the logo. I might even take the drive off of your hands, for a price. Darren There is 1 Reply. #: 12730 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 12:58:27 Sb: #12701-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) Darren, If you're serious, the offer is this: The CD Porta Drive and FD TM850 SCSI-II card for the same price I paid. I won't charge you shipping, just whatever the COD charges are. It's that easy. It's an external drive. Interested? -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 12753 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 21:50:39 Sb: #12730-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 Only if I can get the computer too. Darren #: 12849 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 13:19:30 Sb: #12753-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X) The computer with the Citicard attached? I can swing that one. If you're serious ... really serious, let's move this to email? -a. #: 12643 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 21:17:26 Sb: #12522-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art we just recived three of the cd roms from the MS deal. They come defalt with the FD card now. at leased thats the way they came to us! By the way how the heck are ya? dan There is 1 Reply. #: 12647 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 21:53:17 Sb: #12643-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X) Dan, <> Thanks for letting me know they have changed their default card. You have saved me some typing in future messages. <> Busy! But I was in a slight car accident on Wednesday. Some guy rear ended the car I was in. (passanger) I suffered a minor back sprain. Art There are 2 Replies. #: 12674 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 10:08:43 Sb: #12647-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) SUE! There is 1 Reply. #: 12752 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 21:50:35 Sb: #12674-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 >>SUE!<< Yeah, she's done it before. Darren #: 12738 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 17:48:52 Sb: #12647-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Busy! But I was in a slight car accident on Wednesday. Some guy rear ended the car I was in. (passanger) I suffered a minor back sprain. Busy is good! the car stuff you can do with out! I hope every thing is ok and nothing more that a sprain. How does the JOB in Ca sound sofar? Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 12760 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 03:21:38 Sb: #12738-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X) Dan, <> haven't heard anything yet. But I suspect that they will hire the other guy with more multi-media experiance. I probably would. I'm more of an applications developer than a driver developer. I've done some driver work in the past as I needed, but it's never been full time work. Some people develop drivers for a living. <> Still stiff and sore, but I'm mobile again. :) Art There is 1 Reply. #: 12793 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 07:17:28 Sb: #12760-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Still stiff and sore, but I'm mobile again. :) Dont do TO MUCH TO SOON. I did and 7 years later i'm still paying the price. good luck. hop we all get the NT beta soon! Dan #: 12848 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 13:18:31 Sb: #12760-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, I used to be a driver type ... cab driver in NYC for 5 years ! Seriously, I hope that job does come thru for you. I know if I were making the decision, you'd already be on your way to CA (or Redmond). An Apps developer can always develope drivers. (I'm not so pretty sure it works in reverse ). I did drivers in '78 to '80 and didn't find them too much different than apps ... but I was working in Macro-11 (DEC's assembly for the 11/70) and it was a short jump to drivers. I also hope you're feeling better. Take it easy, relax, and do the exercises they give you. Be well, -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 12930 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 03:46:12 Sb: #12848-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Alex, <> Thanks. I am feeling a little better. It's just slow going. So when we get the new release, what do you think your chances are of getting the CD and NT to cooperate? Hear anything new there? Art There is 1 Reply. #: 12972 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 09:29:29 Sb: #12930-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 Art, Glad to hear you're feeling better. Take it easy, tho. <> I haven't heard anything substantial from MS. I did get a good suggestion from another person here, who said that even though the WD1007 is doing it's translation number on the 1224 cylinder ESDI drive, I should take those translated numbers and put them into the CMOS as drive type 47. So I did that. Now, I have to move stuff around all over again, to make room on the E: partition for NT and try it again. It's pretty simple, if it gets to Canyon.mid and starts to fail again, then that wasn't the answer. Parenthetically, I don't believe it has anything to do with the ESDI HD and controller. But what do I know ? -a. #: 12976 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 09:53:12 Sb: #12972-$199 DAK CD-ROM??? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Alex, Well good luck with the install then. Somehow I think you'll need it. :) Art #: 12629 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 17:57:09 Sb: EISA Ethernet Adapters Fm: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324 To: All Has anyone used an EISA busmastering 32-bit Ethernet adapter (thin-net, not TP) that you would recommend. I've looked at Eagle/Anthem, SMC and Intel (and almost fainted at the cost...) If you are using one of these and it's working well for you, please let me know which one it is. Thanks ! There is 1 Reply. #: 12741 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 18:01:45 Sb: #12629-EISA Ethernet Adapters Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324 Cliff: Most of the EISA ethernet cards out there are based on the Eagle NE3200. Intel, Compaq, and several other vendors OEM this design from Eagle. The OEM versions are driver compatable so you could use them with NT today. I have two NE3200's in my Novell 3.11 file server and they help keep the processor utilization down to a minimum. I think that it only takes 15% of a 486/25's time to keep a NE3200 sending at full speed. Full speed would be about 800-900k per second. The best k byte per second deal are the new 3-com "parallel tasking" adapters. You would see 400-500k per second. Of course it might take 50% of the processors time, but they only cost ~$150. All you need to do is wait for NT drivers. There will be an EISA version of this card in the spring. Carlen #: 12954 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 07:57:41 Sb: #12741-EISA Ethernet Adapters Fm: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 Carlen, thanks for the info in the NE3200s. The 3COMs sound like a good deal, but spring is a long time..... Have you heard of any problems with the NE3200s and bus-mastering SCSI adapters like the Adaptec 1742 ? I keep hearing rumors of packet sequence errors but no one will "fess up" and tell me what's going on. #: 12986 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 10:31:03 Sb: #12954-EISA Ethernet Adapters Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324 (X) Cliff: My file server has an Adaptec 1742 and 2 Novell NE3200's and I have had no problems. Compaq has just announced a new 32bit Ethernet/Token Ring card of their design. It will list at $300, the token ring module will list at $150, see this weeks PC Week. You would probably have to wait a while for NT support. Carlen #: 12993 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 11:09:49 Sb: HP Vectra Fm: Raimund Zopp 100064,3666 To: sysop (X) Following problem: Machine is a new HP Vectra 486/66ST, adaptec SCSI 1740 controller, 16MB RAM Installation by dos2nt fails after the first reboot with error code 0x00000069 and Phase 1 I/O Initialization failed. The same software version worked fine with HP Vectra RS25/c and COREL SCSI interface. Does it mean the new Vectra is not compatible? #: 12688 S8/H/W Compatibility 17-Oct-92 17:52:01 Sb: NT Loader: isa NE eisa Fm: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501 To: all When I boot my ALR BVeisa (17MB) I get a message from the NT loader saying that there is a conflict between the Eisa and Isa memory configuration information, and therefore, the ISA memory config will be used. I'm not sure what effect this is having since everything seems to run ok (altho it slows down the boot by 15 seconds). The eisa configuration disk says everything is ok, altho the documentation isn't great. ALR had no explanation for the message. Anyone here have any idea? There are 2 Replies. #: 12710 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 07:50:39 Sb: #12688-NT Loader: isa NE eisa Fm: neil colvin 71650,3517 To: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501 I have 2 ALR eisa machines (powerpro), and had the same problem. The solution for me was to edit the eisa configuration files for the system motherboard to explicitely include all of the memory on the motherboard. For some reason, only 16MB was declared in the file, and I had 49MB. By putting explicit MEMORY commands in the configuration file, the problem went away. #: 12914 S8/H/W Compatibility 19-Oct-92 21:08:27 Sb: #12710-NT Loader: isa NE eisa Fm: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501 To: neil colvin 71650,3517 I hate to play dumb, but how do you explicitely put MEMORY commands in the eisa config. file? I tried bringing up the memory parts of the eisa config program, and part says 17. something megs, and the next line down says 16 megs (available versus usable, something like that!) Doesn't seem to be any way to edit these lines. Where did you edit the memory available? ..Mike #: 12994 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 11:18:52 Sb: #12914-NT Loader: isa NE eisa Fm: neil colvin 71650,3517 To: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501 The EISA configuration program reads !xxxxxxx.cfg files to configure the system. These files are ASCII files, and can be edited by any editor. Many times, the type of problem you are having is due to missing statements in these base .cfg files. Find the one for your system, and look for MEMORY= statements. Make sure that these reflect the memory in your system. Ask your vendor for the EISA .cfg specification. It is a useful document to have. #: 12742 S8/H/W Compatibility 18-Oct-92 18:04:10 Sb: #12688-NT Loader: isa NE eisa Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501 Mike: I get this same message on my AST Power Premium machine. It showed up after I pulled out my only EISA adapter. Go figure. Carlen #: 12997 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 11:29:01 Sb: SCSI II Host Adaptors??? Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Karl Mitschke 73650,150 (X) Karl, Here is a listing of SCSI Host Adapters taken from the October Hardware Compatibility List. Be sure to take note of any footnotes. I hope this helps, -- Terence Hosken [MS] The following SCSI adapters have been tested with CD-ROM and disk drives. [11] Adaptec AHA-1540b/1542b Adaptec AHA-1740 [2] DPT PM2012B Future Domain MCS-600 Future Domain MCS-700 Future Domain TMC-845 Future Domain TMC-850 Future Domain TMC-850M(ER) Future Domain TMC-885 Future Domain TMC-1660 Future Domain TMC-1680 Future Domain TMC-7000EX IBM SCSI Host Adapter [3] Maynard 16-Bit SCSI Controller [4] NCR 53C700 SCSI Controller [5] NCR 53C710 SCSI Controller [6] NCR 53C90 SCSI Controller [5] Olivetti ESC-1 UltraStor 14F [6] UltraStor 24F [12] [2] Adaptec AHA-1740A must be configured for 5mb/sec., asynchronous to work with listed CD-ROM drives from Chinon, Hitachi and NEC. [3] Earlier versions of this controller, including the PS/2 Model P75 have proven to have problems with various CD-ROM drives. The Chinon CDX-431 and NEC Intersect CDR-73 are known to work with this controller. [4] The Maynard SCSI Controller can be used as a general purpose SCSI controller for all tasks except setup. [5] Machines with this SCSI adapter must use the WINNT.EXE setup method. [6] See the Beta Release Notes for more information on this adapter. [11] Tape functionality has been successfully tested on a limited set of SCSI adapters: Adaptec AHA-1540b and AHA-1740, Future Domain TMC-845, TMC-7000EX, IBM SCSI Host Adapter in PS/2 model 95, Maynard 16-Bit SCSI Controller, Olivetti ESC-1 and native SCSI adapters on MIPS ARC/R4000 systems from ACER, MIPS and Olivetti. [12] UltraStor24F The UltraStor24F might not work properly when used as a secondary controller in a computer with an IDE disk or a PC-AT disk primary drive. #: 12998 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 11:29:07 Sb: UltraStor 24F Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Charles Hoffman 71477,3612 Charles, There is support in the October Beta for the UltraStor24F, however there are still some minor problems. The UltraStor24F might not work properly when used as a secondary controller in a computer with an IDE disk or a PC-AT disk primary drive. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12926 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 00:35:30 Sb: CD-ROM free advice?? Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 To: All Hi, For anybody that doesn't mind typing a few words to help a stranger make the correct choice: I need to buy a CD-ROM, right now for use under win 3.1 but with use under NT in mind for the near future. Obviously value for money is a factor but I don't mind paying extra for reliability, useability etc. Audio CD playing is as important as data cd's!! Thanks to the extreme for any help/advice/horror stories, Pete. There is 1 Reply. #: 12962 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 08:16:16 Sb: #12926-CD-ROM free advice?? Fm: Shannon Hill 75430,446 To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 Peter, I have a NEC CDR-74 and love it!! NEC makes one of the best CD-ROMs on the market. I highly recommend it. It also supports the new Multi Media standards and plays great audio CD's. The only downfall is that it comes wiwith a Trantor T128 card which is an 8-bit SCSI card. I would suggest buying a different SCSI card. NEC is a very popular brand and is supported by most SCSI card manufacturers. Happy computing!! :-) ** Mr. Shannon Hill ** There is 1 Reply. #: 12964 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 08:55:28 Sb: #12962-CD-ROM free advice?? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Shannon Hill 75430,446 Shannon, FWIW: The only problem I have with the NEC CD-ROM drives is that they are not SCSI-2 compliant. Which means no audio for NT. At least not until someone writes a filter for audio commands. Art #: 13058 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 21:33:25 Sb: #12964-CD-ROM free advice?? Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) So...get writing ! Thanks for the input, that is an important consideration. Pete. #: 13057 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 21:32:20 Sb: #12962-CD-ROM free advice?? Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 To: Shannon Hill 75430,446 Thanks a lot for your reply #: 13062 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 22:23:40 Sb: PAS16 scsi pinouts Fm: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52 To: All In hopes of having the MV PAS16 supported by the next release of NT, I'm trying to find out what is necessary to convert the 50pin on-the-card scsi connector to a DB25-type scsi connector for an external CD ROM. I'm using the Adaptec 1542 right now (which, if this works out, I might want to sell), but would prefer to consolidate things onto the PAS16 card. I got the card used, and it came to me with the CD ROM drivers, but not the requisite 50-25 pin conversion plate. Anyone out there know what the 50-pin pinouts are, and how they should be manipulated to convert to 25? Thanks in advance for your help - wally There is 1 Reply. #: 13082 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 04:16:04 Sb: #13062-PAS16 scsi pinouts Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52 Wally, I'd ask ken Nicholson for this info. Or better yet you can order an adapter for the Pro-16 with an internal SCSI connection to the Pro-16 and a bracketted external SCSI connection along wiht a load of DOS drivers. Art #: 12585 S8/H/W Compatibility 16-Oct-92 12:32:36 Sb: COM PORTS AND WINNT Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: Don Perry 76676,1127 Don, Here's something to test. Try switching the mouse and the modem, i.e., the mouse on COM1 and the modem on COM2. You know that the mouse and COM2 are functioning correctly. The new configuration should test the modem and COM2. As for question 2. This error message is misleading (to say the least :), and will be changed for the beta release. What the message meant to say is that the hardware configuration for COM1 thru COM4 are known and industry standard (give or take a little). Thus, no modifications will be allowed. Hope this helps. Sam Karroum [MS] #: 12927 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 00:42:30 Sb: #12585-COM PORTS AND WINNT Fm: Don Perry 76676,1127 To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X) Sam: Thanks for the tip!! Seems like the UART was good enough for the mouse but not the comm port. I have since replaced the whole io card (with a new NS16550AFN) and she seems to be working beautifully. (I'm sending you this message from TAPCIS running in an NT DOS box.) I do think however that modifiations of the ports and IRQ's should be allowed somehow as I know that some io cards allow for choosing several different IO ports and between any IRQ (including 8-15). This would allow me for instance to install a FAX modem as another comm port while retaining a modem and mouse on standard COM1 and COM2. Don #: 13210 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 02:22:39 Sb: #12927-COM PORTS AND WINNT Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325 To: Don Perry 76676,1127 I used to run a BBS some years back and an issue I endured many beers over was the need for a 16550 UART. Although I was not really sure why, I sprung for the chip and the installation. I have long since abanodoned the BBS and the Modem that was improved by the 16550 (as well as the box it was installed in.) and now I see much conversation on various fora re: the 16550. What, please, does it do? Does it do better with everything using the COM ports? Are there some known glitches or Apps that will be ADVERSELY affected by the addition of a 16550? Why doesn't every motherboard maker install one right out of the gate; the cost difference cannot be that great? What's the real deal? Thanks for what you can do #: 13184 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 19:57:11 Sb: Driver Compatibility Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 To: Microsoft Tech. Support Will a Windows device driver developed an an Intel-based PC be compatible with a MIPS or DEC system by virtue of the operaitng system? Or will the device driver need to be re-compiled for each platform supported? Louis Columbus There is 1 Reply. #: 13223 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 04:02:31 Sb: #13184-Driver Compatibility Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 Louis, <> That's the ticket. Device drivers will only be source code compatible. A new binary will be need for each hardware platform. Art #: 13227 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 04:37:31 Sb: #12552-CD-ROM Suggestions? Fm: Fred Kemmerer 72147,2763 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, Sorry to but in but you mentioned a good windows CD player by Enis Moran. I was wondering if you could tell me what it is called and where (if) its available on CIS? Thanks in advance for the help, - Fred Kemmerer There is 1 Reply. #: 13232 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 06:05:46 Sb: #13227-CD-ROM Suggestions? Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Fred Kemmerer 72147,2763 Fred: Think you can find it on winadv. If you have trouble, just shout and I will post you his CIS number. It truly is a nice little app. Title I think is CDplayer.zip. bob #: 13255 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 09:07:07 Sb: DTC 3290 EISA SCSI Fm: Eduardo Hoo 71332,417 To: all Hi everyone, I'm having trouble installing WinNT (alternate inst. - DOS2NT) with a DTC 3290 EISA SCSI Adapter. I get a "Fatal System Error: 0x69". I looked at the NTFAQ.TXT and turn off the turbo mode, it worked. Well that's not exactly a clean solution! Does anyone have more info on that? -Ed. #: 13024 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 16:03:32 Sb: > than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Art Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: Got smart here, talked the SCSI gurus themselves. Seems that all is well. NT and Dos will look at the world the same way. So now all I have to figure out is how to move stuff from 3 harddrives over to one and keep all active at the same time . When I told my scheme to the driver specialist at adaptec, he nearly threw up . he thought it was worth the experiment. time will tell . let you know soon. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13070 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 03:19:02 Sb: #13024-> than a gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <> That's good to hear. but it means MS must have made changes to NT then. I say that because the first time you installed the drive and had no primary partition on the second drive that NT swapped your drive letters around. <> Yes. Please! BTW: I can understand how the Adaptec spec feels. It sounds bizarre to me too! If I ever add a 1 Gb drive it will an optical drive. If I need that much space I'll pay the little extra to buy large removable media. I figure another 510 Mb IDE drive for 1 Gb local storage and another 5 - 10 Gb on optical storage should do it. :) Besides if I get another 510 Mb drive I can try out NT's data striping feature and see what it'll do for me. TTYL... Art PS: The only question I have now is... Where am I going to get the money? There is 1 Reply. #: 13092 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 07:05:39 Sb: #13070-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: RE: the drive designation swap! Well NT was reading primary partitions first than logical & extended ones. When I ran Fdisk the first time on the D drive, I made it an extended partition. When I reformatted it as a primary partition, NT had no problems at all. So the fault was mine, NT just found it and made me look silly (actually fairly easy ). RE: translation scheme This is what I was told by Adaptec. they developed a translation scheme in conjunction with MS. the 1542 system driver has been redone and my lost drives should no longer occur. I might have to wait for the beta release but since this is due out next week, no big deal. RE: cost of drive Actually boils down to as follows: just got a seagate 245 ($649.00). have 2 quantum 245 ide's. Figure that I can get 350-400 for each of them. The fujitsu harddrive drive costs $1400. This will get me away from the mixed bus and also make it easy to EISA. Ah, the ole "to Eisa or not to eisa, that is the question . bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13100 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 07:19:14 Sb: #13092-> than a gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Bob, <)>> Ah, but I thought DOS did correctly see the drives in the right order even though drive D: was an extended (logical) partion on the second physical hard disk. While NT did something like (C: primary disk 0, D: logical disk 0 and E: logical disk 1), and DOS was (C: primary disk 0, D: logical disk 1, E: logical disk 0). <> Go for it! Art #: 13119 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 09:43:45 Sb: #13100-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: RE: dos vs NT in reading drives You have to realize that (& I am sure you do ) that dos reads only two drives as primary drives. The remaining ones are considered controlled by drivers. Hence, dos would consider drive 1 as c, drive 2 as D & then the remaining drives would be taken in order. SCSI 0 would be E etc. NT looks at everything and lumps primary & extended partitions together & then assigns them letters. It saw c as a primary, d as a logical and e as a primary. Hence, it called E D and vice versa. Once I realized what was happening, I simply reformatted D and all was well. Fascinating thing here is that the two are reading things so differently; IMHO it is a problem in Dos & not in NT. If I were a betting man, I would wager that future releases of DOS (not 6 but 7 on) will support more than 2 drives and there will not be a cylinder limit as there is now. Furthermore, dos will get many of the nuances in NT when in 32bit release. Drive just arrived. I did not realize what full height means. Had to panic order a case & 65 watt power supply for the critter. Just think, Compaq uses a power supply for their cheapies that is the same size as the power supply for 1 of my harddrives. Now there is food for thought . Just need the bios upgrade from Adaptec & I am in business. Will know soon, I hope, what the deal is with these SCSI boat anchors . bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13127 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 10:45:45 Sb: #13119-> than a gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, FWIW: DOS supports a primary and a secondary disk controller. 4 Drives in all. Depending on the controller of course. But you did see the point I was making. DOS & NT do see things differently. So if what you were told is true, NT has had it's disk recognition method changed. As to full height... Yep. There big critters. My tower case has room for 2 1/2 height 3.5 (or 4 low profile 3.5) and 2 1/2 height (1 full height) drives internally, plus 4 5.25 external (open) devices. I still have room for 1 3.5 internal and the 5.25 full height drive, so if you want to send it to me for testing... You *really* should look around at the new tower cases. Some support 11 1/2 height devices. I found that it was cheaper to upgrade my case than it was to buy an external case/power supply. So I did! It only cost me $99. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 13201 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 20:49:08 Sb: #13127-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I have been kicking myself for some time about a tower case. To be honest, SCSI works better with all internal cables. Will get a monster one of these days. the big drive is probably better off out of the case. It uses a 65 watt power supply & gets a tad hot . Will wait to next week for putting NT back on the system. By the way, EMM386 nolonger works. Just locks up. Real bummer. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13216 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 03:18:21 Sb: #13201-> than a gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <> JDR has a *real* nice tower case with a 450 watt power supply, 11 1/2 height drive bays, a door to cover the open bays, and only cost $495. that cost is still the reason I haven't bought it yet. If I could only find it somewhere else and cheaper too. <> That doesn't sound good. Is this with the new Adaptec BIOS? Art There is 1 Reply. #: 13235 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 06:06:16 Sb: #13216-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) RE: Tower -- there are actually cheaper ones than the $450. You keep on using those retail prices . Funny thing, the case I am getting for the drive has a 65 watt power supply. So do the new super-compaq computers. makes you wonder a bit does it not? Yes -- emm386 is failing with the new bios but so is qemm. Funny thing, if I run one IDE drive, all is well. If i totally insert the bios, then no memory manager. Folks at adaptec are probably going to love this one . No real biggee however. reasonably sure that all will work out . bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13254 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 08:59:42 Sb: #13235-> than a gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Bob, <> Now that makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Adaptec bios only used for a boot drive? With the IDE drive installed it'll be the primary boot device. <> Not really. The new Compaqs are all surface mount technology. That initself cuts down the power requirements (heat too). I have a Deskpro 486/33 M, but I thought it had a larger (200 watt) power supply. Are you latking about the prolina (????) line? They are the cheapie Compaqs, not the super-compaps. The M series I have is even EISA. :) Art #: 13278 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 11:34:49 Sb: #13254-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: I was facetiously referring to the cheapies ! a 65 watt power supply on a computer is like a full sized car running a 50 horsepower engine! bob There are 2 Replies. #: 13280 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 11:50:02 Sb: #13278-> than a gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, <> Oh! :) Art #: 13290 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 13:54:34 Sb: #13278-> than a gigabyte Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) >a 65 watt power supply on a computer is like a full sized car running a 50 >horsepower engine! Now that you mention it, I have found that my power supply requirements have gone way down over the years. Modern motherboards, option boards and harddisks have all become more efficient thus requiring less in the way of a power supply. But I sill don't think I would want a 65W power supply . -MarkV There is 1 Reply. #: 13318 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 18:35:59 Sb: #13290-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X) mark: My 1.1 gig Fujitsu harddrive needs plenty of juice. Toss in 20 megs of ram and a 486/33 chip -- 300 watts in a flash. Everybody is going smaller, I am going bigger (all should be internal) with two cooling fans, a 350-450 watt power supply with built in UPS & a beer chiller all in one case . Now we are talking. bob There is 1 Reply. #: 13321 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 21:08:00 Sb: #13318-> than a gigabyte Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Let's see, 486 (what, no overdrive? ) with 20 megs RAM and a gig of harddisk space...., in a few years I bet we see something comparable in a laptop running on batteries . And in a few more years a palmtop...., (and in a few more years a watch.....) Seriously, I recently bought one of those small 550 MB Conner IDE drives, and it looks identical to the rest of the small 3.5 harddisks, and it probably consumes about the same power. I don't have the specifics handy, but I'll bet it is much less than the old 20-30 MB MFM drives like Seagate. Some of my older, high end graphics boards are full length boards that are monstrosities, while newer boards are usually half boards employing VLSI technology. In fact, I can't remember the last full length board I bought, everything seems to be half length at the most. I do like this trend because the machines tend to run cooler despite the huge increases in performance, and cooler = 'longer life', usually. -MarkV There is 1 Reply. #: 13326 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 21:32:02 Sb: #13321-> than a gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X) Mark: Things are getting smaller & cooler. Still the 1 & 2 gig scsi harddrives command respect . My old MFMs were larger than many of the newer IDE harddrives. In fact, I just removed two Quantum 240 IDEs. damn they are little . bob #: 13288 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 13:40:05 Sb: are my hard drives ok? Fm: carl rehbein 76317,275 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I am looking at buying a new hard drive. Are these supported in the current release of NT (beta). Maxtor ext 4380 ESDI drive soft sector with omti sms 8641 controller? or Western digital 4200 with ide controller. or I have seen a lot of notes on the trantor t128. Can it be used as a boot device for a scsi hard drive or is it just cdrom. If it can be a drive, could you direct me to the note that sums up all the steps needed to get to work in ONE note??? thanks carl p.s. I take rll drives are out? There are 2 Replies. #: 13333 S8/H/W Compatibility 23-Oct-92 03:08:15 Sb: #13288-are my hard drives ok? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: carl rehbein 76317,275 Carl, Here's an excerpt from the Oct hardware list. Individual drives are not listed. Compatability is generally a disk controller related issue. ***************************** Disk Controllers ---------------Any controller 100% register compatible with the following. Western Digital(R) 1003 (ESDI, IDE) Compaq Intelligent Drive Array SCSI(R) Host Adapters --------------------The following SCSI adapters have been tested with CD-ROM and disk drives. [11] Adaptec AHA-1540b/1542b Adaptec AHA-1740 [2] DPT PM2012B Future Domain MCS-600 Future Domain MCS-700 Future Domain TMC-845 Future Domain TMC-850 Future Domain TMC-850M(ER) Future Domain TMC-885 Future Domain TMC-1660 Future Domain TMC-1680 Future Domain TMC-7000EX IBM SCSI Host Adapter [3] Maynard 16-Bit SCSI Controller [4] NCR 53C700 SCSI Controller [5] NCR 53C710 SCSI Controller [6] NCR 53C90 SCSI Controller [5] Olivetti ESC-1 UltraStor 14F [6] UltraStor 24F [6] Native SCSI adapter on MIPS ARC/R4000 systems from ACER, MIPS and Olivetti **************************** Art #: 13334 S8/H/W Compatibility 23-Oct-92 03:10:28 Sb: #13288-are my hard drives ok? Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: carl rehbein 76317,275 Carl, <> Currently the Trantor driver only supports secondary SCSI devices. It does not support a bootable drive. It also has to be manually installed after NT has been installed and is working. RE: RLL RLL & MFM drives are fine. Slow, but fine. Art #: 12999 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 11:29:15 Sb: #12505-Support for SB Pro CD Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Warren Bare 76620,613 Warren, Below is the list of tested CD ROM drives from the October Hardware Compatibility List. I do not beleive the SB-Pro drive is included. The following CD-ROM drives have been tested. [1] CD Technology CD Porta-Drive T-3301 Chinon CDX-431 DEC RRD 42-DA Denon DRD 253 Hitachi CDR-1750S Hitachi CDR-3750 IBM 3510 NEC Intersect CDR-73(M) NEC Intersect CDR-74 NEC Intersect CDR-84 Pioneer DRM-600 Sony CDU-541 Sony CDU-6211 Sony CDU-7211 Texel DM-5021 Toshiba TXM-3201 Toshiba TXM-3301 [1] Not all SCSI adapter/CD-ROM drive combinations are compatible due to limitations in firmware. Consult your manufacturer or reseller prior to purchase. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 13153 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 14:36:26 Sb: #12999-Support for SB Pro CD Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) >>Below is the list of tested CD ROM drives from the October Hardware >>Compatibility List. I do not beleive the SB-Pro drive is included. ... >> CD Technology CD Porta-Drive T-3301 Chinon CDX-431 DEC RRD 42-DA >>Denon DRD 253 Hitachi CDR-1750S Hitachi CDR-3750 IBM 3510 NEC >>Intersect CDR-73(M) NEC Intersect CDR-74 NEC Intersect CDR-84 >>Pioneer DRM-600 Sony CDU-541 Sony CDU-6211 Sony CDU-7211 Texel >>DM-5021 Toshiba TXM-3201 Toshiba TXM-3301 Hi Terence. After about 3 weeks of scrambling I secured 16Meg of memory, another 180 Meg harddrive and a "CHINON CDX-431" CDROM. Today I was ready to install my NT and the "FLOPPY PAGE FAULT ERROR" occurred on my 3.5". OK so CSERVE says that will be fixed on the late '92 release, so I reconfig my 3.5 & 1.2 floppys to boot from the 1.2... It gets into the boot routines and won't recognize my Chinon CDX-431 CDROM. So I go to DOS2NT. It works, but WIN-NT still won't recognize my CDROM. Got any suggestions? Wade #: 13287 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 13:22:58 Sb: #13153-Support for SB Pro CD Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Wade Mintz 72110,520 (X) Wade, What type of controller are you using. That, too, must be recognized by Windows NT. Assuming that is not the problem, check the SCSI ID for the CD-ROM. You should not be using 0 or 1. I hope this helps, -- Terence Hosken [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 13338 S8/H/W Compatibility 23-Oct-92 04:37:08 Sb: #13287-Support for SB Pro CD Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 ............ What type of controller are you using. That, too, must be recognized by Windows NT. Assuming that is not the problem, check the SCSI ID for the CD-ROM. You should not be using 0 or 1. ............ Heh. I called Chinon and they told me that MS recommends their CDROM, but that their controller is incompatible. (sheeesh! I'm down $1000 and still can't install NT!) So... Is the Trantor a supported controller, or do I need to drop another $200+ for a controller? #: 12979 S8/H/W Compatibility 20-Oct-92 09:55:47 Sb: >1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Terence Hoskins [MS] 71075,643 (X) I am in the process of changing to a Fujitsu harddrive that is greater than a gigabyte. This is on the 1542b adapter. Adaptec is sending me the new bios that does a control card change of cylinders etc. In dos, I just use fdisk & format & the drive is formatted to its complete size. Question: will NT read this altered bios on the 1542b and will I be able to use this system with NT. Thanks. bob #: 13148 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 13:16:29 Sb: #12979->1 gigabyte Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) Bob, The 1542b is, of course, on the Hardware Compatibility List. I can't say for sure about the altered BIOS, though. Adaptec should have the answer, I would think. In a later note you mention having contacted them. Is this still an open question? -- Terence Hosken [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 13199 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 20:48:54 Sb: #13148->1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Terence: RE: adaptec & > than a gigabyte Well just converted all over to the big sucker. The bios update allows the 1542 to see greater than a gig. have it as my C drive. Created a partition with Fdisk & formatted the critter. No afdisk etc. have not bothered to load NT. Figured I would wait until the beta release. What with dos changing etc., rather only change once in awhile. According to the Adaptec folks, the translation done in NT is the same as the translation that the bios does. bob #: 13178 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 19:04:54 Sb: #12979->1 gigabyte Fm: Rick Brant 70322,2160 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) I also have an Adaptec 1542B. I have a Quantum 230Meg drive, a 1.2 Gig Micropilis drive, a Sony CDU-541 CD-Rom drive and just installed a TTI tape backup unit. All of the drives work well upder NT except the Tape unit. (I have to post a couple of messages to determine the correct config). My 1.2 Gig drive formated as a 1 Gig Drive. I checked the Adaptec Board and they had the Bios upgrade and all of the tools to install it. (Its on EProm) I also read, at the very bottom of there message, If I installed the new Bios, it would void the warrenty! I thought that 200meg(out of 1000) was not worth the effort! I have the drive formated as a 700 Fat volume and a 300meg NTFS volume. So far so Good! There is 1 Reply. #: 13200 S8/H/W Compatibility 21-Oct-92 20:49:01 Sb: #13178->1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Rick Brant 70322,2160 Well, void the warranty . they sent me the bios and the spec sheets etc. Stuck the bios in and away I went. The fujitsu is listed as a 1075. It formatted as 1020. Only fatalities in the whole thing is that emm386 no longer will work & I cannot use fastdisk in win 3.1 (not sure why actually). bob There are 2 Replies. #: 13222 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 04:01:06 Sb: #13200->1 gigabyte Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X) bob, <> FastDisk makes a few queries of your system bios settings as well as the settings returned from DOS. If they do not match, then no FastDisk and you will get a phase 6 01 error. FastDisk also has similar limitations with translation. If the translation is done in the bios (instead of the drive hardware) then you cannot use FastDisk and must instead use the BIOS. If you are really brave I do know of a switch to force FastDisk on. But you risk the lose of all your data trying it. It does work for my caching IDE disk controller which is 99.99 WD1003 compatible. Art PS: There is a whole slew of error messages from FastDisk. If you tell me what yours was I can see if I can find more info on it. I have the DDK and FastDisk source around somewhere. There are 2 Replies. #: 13233 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 06:06:00 Sb: #13222->1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) If I am brave?? Art: You are looking at a person who yesterday had 2 IDE drives, 3 scsi drives, a bernoulli, a CD-rom, a tapebackup all functional at once. This is not only brave it verges on lunacy. OK! I'll bite. How do I force fastdisk? better yet, with the bios resident I cannot use any memory managers in the UMB range. Not sure how serious this is but reminds me of the old 286 days . By the way, since this is my pick-on Art day, know any disk optimizers that can handle a gig harddrive? Thought about partitioning the drive but that puts me back into the NT vs dos problem in reading drives. Still might do it but need to "think this one through". Let's see, if I make the d drive a logical drive on an extended partition & then make partitions on c, then both dos & NT should see the world the same way. By golly I'll do it . After all, I only have 500 meg of files to worry about . I do the partitioning. Install sytos +, this then will copy over necessary files & boom back in business. then move files around. open win.ini and edit which belongs where . Will take me at least an hour or so . bob #: 13234 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 06:06:07 Sb: #13222->1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art: error message was basically that the computer would not support fastdisk (think something about interrupt conflict -- the old 13 problem I'll bet). bob #: 13237 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 06:19:19 Sb: #13200->1 gigabyte Fm: Ernest J. Anderson 76067,432 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 PMJI, but the problem with EMM386 comes from the 1542b being a busmastering controller that doesn't support the Virtual DMA spec in its BIOS (I think). You can fix this by loading software which double buffers the controller, or which provides VDS services before you load EMM386. If you load ASPI4DOS.SYS before you load EMM386, everything should work fine, except you will be out the memory for the driver. Adaptec has a double buffering manager, or if you load smartdrive double buffering BEFORE emm386 this will work as well, but it will be slower. Ernie Anderson #: 13277 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 11:34:42 Sb: #13237->1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Ernest J. Anderson 76067,432 (X) Ernie: Good point. In fact, I even knew that. will try & see if that is the problem. Of course I am using aspi4dos, works great! Will let you know. you might have saved the day >! bob #: 13281 S8/H/W Compatibility 22-Oct-92 12:31:34 Sb: #13237->1 gigabyte Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246 To: Ernest J. Anderson 76067,432 (X) Ernie: Thank you very much! Works like a champ. Sometimes my stupidity is only exceeded by my enthusiasm to trash things . Funny thing, Mike Berhan who wrote the latest aspi4dos told me about loading the adaptec controller early. Looks like he was right. bob #: 13350 S8/H/W Compatibility 23-Oct-92 05:57:49 Sb: #13200->1 gigabyte Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 Bob, FastDisk can only support a 504MB drive. It is essentially hardwired to support 1024 cylinders by 16 heads by 63 sectors by 512 bytes per sector. These numbers conform to a max drive size contrained by DOS/BIOS/WD1003 limitations. John #: 12734 S9/File System 18-Oct-92 14:51:39 Sb: NTFS access to half? Fm: Joe G Greer 76470,722 To: anyone I am unable to modify priveledges on a NTFS volume. I have installed the Windows NT operating system using the dos2nt process(on drive d:\). I have an 8 meg. partition on disk 2 called drive e:\. I have logged on as the administrator and run "takeown e:\" from the MS-DOS window. In the file manager I select drive E:\ and try to allow access to all files, everyone having access and all previous info changed to the new settings. Then I get the message "insufficient privelege." Can anyone help? Thanks Joe G Greer II There is 1 Reply. #: 12812 S9/File System 19-Oct-92 10:13:30 Sb: #12734-NTFS access to half? Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Joe G Greer 76470,722 Joe, In the pre-release, you cannot change access rights for the "system" files that make up NTFS. When you attempt to modify all files in the root directory you will get the message you indicate. You should, however, be able to individually modify the non-system files in the root directory, as well as all the files in any subdirectory tree. I hope this helps, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12824 S9/File System 19-Oct-92 10:48:15 Sb: #12431-C low level IO Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Mark Stevens 100020,2561 Mark, This sounds like a development issue. Please repost it in a section of MSWIN32. WINNT is dedicated to end-user issues about Windows NT (for example installing/setting up the Windows NT operating system itself), MSWIN32 is dedicated to developer issues about Windows NT (for example installing/setting up the SDK for Windows NT) The more we can all stick to the organization for the forums/sections that the release notes mention, the easier it ill be for all forum readers to efficiently get to the info they need. Thanks! #: 12969 S9/File System 20-Oct-92 09:23:26 Sb: #12233-De-Frag for NT Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156 To: Tom Hazel [Microsoft] 72360,1176 By my definition, the file system is comprised of the data on the media. This data _includes_ the directory structures, indexing pointers, overhead, and _all_ the other bits that are written to the media. I also made no recommendation as to the advantages or disadvantages of any particular algorithm to reduce/eliminate fragmentation. I simply pointed out that for each of the three file systems of interest (and more generally for _any_ file system) there are many possible algorithms that reduce/elminate fragmentation. I was responding to a previous comment that implied a connection between the file system structure and the existence of algorithms to reduce fragmentation. #: 12996 S9/File System 20-Oct-92 11:28:49 Sb: #12969-De-Frag for NT Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Carl Byington 74040,1156 Carl, I can certainly accept your definition. One reason for Tom's statements is that specific fragmentation avoidance techniques happen to have been a part of the formal HPFS design specification. The same cannot be said about the NTFS design specification. The good news is that the three major file system implementations under Windows NT (FAT, HPFS, and NTFS) *all* take steps to cut down on file fragmentation in that all will attempt to create a file as contiguous as possible given any information available about the allocation size of the file. I hope this helps, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 13246 S9/File System 22-Oct-92 08:10:46 Sb: #12996-De-Frag for NT Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156 To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X) Great. Now if NT would just come up on my machine. Sigh... maybe the next release. By the way, how about another plug for TIGA support in the next release? If NT is targeted at the high end (requires fairly recent SCSI adapters, etc), then it seems reasonable that it should support the high end coprocessed video boards. To change the subject, is there (or will there be) a mechanism in NT to migrate a FAT file system to NTFS without a full save/restore to another media. What I want is an in-place conversion. I realize that if anything goes wrong, then we are back to the full save/restore, but if there are no disk errors it should work. #: 13286 S9/File System 22-Oct-92 13:22:53 Sb: #13246-De-Frag for NT Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 To: Carl Byington 74040,1156 (X) Carl, About the TIGA, the best thing to do is to let hardware manufacturers know that you want drivers for their hardware. About in place file system conversion, there is actually such a utility in the October release. Regards, -- Terence Hosken [MS] #: 12746 S10/Device Drivers 18-Oct-92 18:52:13 Sb: Trantor SCSI & NT Fm: Mark Denchy 74000,1651 To: ALL Has anyone been able to patch the NT Install Disk to handle a Trantor T128/228 SCSI Rom controller? I have the latest NT Trantor SYS file, but I would like to be able to run the Graphical Install. I'm using a NEC CDR-37 ROM. Mark #: 12626 S10/Device Drivers 16-Oct-92 17:28:41 Sb: #12239-Hardware programming Fm: Robert Keck 74040,3521 To: GMS 100063,2012 Actually it is not overkill at all. One of the kinds of things we do a lot of is image acquisition and processing. Doing this without a flat address space is a pain. In addition, most of what we do requires network services. We are also under pressure to be as POSIX compliant as possible. In addition, it is frequently desireable to be able to multitask and multithread. We have in the past used PDP-11's running RSX, but this is no longer an option. More recently, we have used VMS/VAXstations, but when equipped with a bus, they are very expensive. In addition, VMS has of late become not Politically Correct. Furthermore, people are more and more expecting fancy GUI's. While Windows/DOS provides this, the no preemptive nature of Windows multitasking is not acceptable. #: 12960 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 08:13:22 Sb: #12226-Hardware programming Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 To: Robert Keck 74040,3521 Robert, The NT DDK Conference is next week and I'll know more by then. Ask me again the following week and I'll have an answer. (If Microsoft let's me in). In the meantime, NT does have the concept of virtual device drivers and Intel CPUs do have the concept of per-process I/O port access, so it is conceivable that what you ask might be available. I believe that I understand your reasoning and think it's a good idea. -- Daniel Norton Author of "Writing Windows Device Drivers" #: 13029 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 17:11:40 Sb: DTC3290AS SCSI Adaptor Fm: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 To: Mike Snowden 100021,3015 Sorry, there is currently no support for the DTC3290AS. #: 12601 S10/Device Drivers 16-Oct-92 13:55:10 Sb: T128/CDR83 Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624 To: whoever I have a T128 SCSI card with a NEC CDR83 CD-ROM. Where can I get drivers for this config? Would appreciate any help! Keith #: 13042 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 20:00:51 Sb: #12601-T128/CDR83 Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 The Trantor T128 is not a supported SCSI adapter. Please refer to the Hardware Compatability List for your release of Windows NT. If you require a certain driver for hardware that is not on the list, please fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to: >internet:winnthw@microsoft.com. That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for Windows NT. Also contact the hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported too. This is like voting... Thanks! Gregg Acheson [Microsoft] #: 12579 S10/Device Drivers 16-Oct-92 12:13:21 Sb: DAK CDROM Driver?? Fm: - Visitor 75030,2023 To: all To ALL, Does Microsoft have a device driver for Windows/NT that supports the BSR CD ROM drive that is currently being marketed by DAK Industries for $199 and CompuAdd for $169. It would certainly make it "Cost Effective" to be able to use the drive with Windows/NT. IBM is currently testing the drive and is trying to ready a driver for release in their Professional Developers Program. I would welcome an invitation to participate in the development of the driver Roger W. Faulds, ISO, Chemical Bank Faulds Network Technologies (Independent Consulting) #: 13043 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 20:00:57 Sb: #12579-DAK CDROM Driver?? Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: - Visitor 75030,2023 Please refer to the Hardware Compatability List for your release of Windows NT. If you require a certain driver for hardware that is not on the list, please fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to: >internet:winnthw@microsoft.com. That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for Windows NT. Also contact the hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported too. This is like voting... Thanks! Gregg Acheson [Microsoft] #: 13044 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 20:01:06 Sb: #12432-additional drivers Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: mike burroughs 71062,1241 Please refer to the Hardware Compatability List for your release of Windows NT. If you require a certain driver for hardware that is not on the list, please fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to: >internet:winnthw@microsoft.com. That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for Windows NT. Also contact the hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported too. This is like voting... Thanks! Gregg Acheson [Microsoft] #: 13045 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 20:01:10 Sb: #12139-Video in Oct release? Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: David J. Plunkett 71163,2122 David, There will be a new Hardware Compatibility List posted for the new release posted shortly. Gregg Acheson [MS] #: 12706 S10/Device Drivers 18-Oct-92 03:46:21 Sb: Stacker Fm: - Visitor 71162,2411 To: all Id the final version of WIN NT going to support stacker or visa-versa? #: 13026 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 16:41:32 Sb: #12706-Stacker Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: - Visitor 71162,2411 (X) Please contact stacker. They may be working on a Windows NT driver. There is 1 Reply. #: 13064 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 22:30:53 Sb: #13026-Stacker Fm: - Visitor 71162,2411 To: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 (X) Thanks. It seems like microsoft should really just build stacker into NT. I'll call them. I'll call them. #: 13006 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 12:42:52 Sb: Trantor adaptor Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546 To: Sysop (X) I know you must have received hundreds of comments about missing drivers. Still, I am surprised that the Trantor adaptor (that comes with the NEC CD-ROM drive) is not supported. Sure, I can copy to my hard disk, but what the heck. I know that the Trantor support persons was (nearly) begging the NT team to support his adaptor. Are we going to receive a driver update before next year? Marc Singer -- Straylight Software There are 2 Replies. #: 13041 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 20:00:45 Sb: #13006-Trantor adaptor Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 Marc, Please fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to: >internet:winnthw@microsoft.com. That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for Windows NT. You should *also* contact your hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported too. This is like voting... Gregg Acheson [MS] #: 13083 S10/Device Drivers 21-Oct-92 04:18:24 Sb: #13006-Trantor adaptor Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 Marc, trantor has already released a beta driver for NT to support their cards. You can get it from their BBS. 510-656-5159 Art #: 13110 S10/Device Drivers 21-Oct-92 08:57:40 Sb: Adaptec on DDK? Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Mike Snowden 100021,3015 >2) If this card is really like a generic adaptec, will there be > an adaptec driver on the DDK disk, that we can SIMPLY modify, so > that our cards are recognized? You should talk to DTC, they will have the right information for you. They have been working with MS in developing drivers for their cards. >This might sway our decision on whether to attend the DDK conference, >so we need a reply before the close-out date of oct 23rd. If you want to get a head start on writing NT drivers you should attend the Conference. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameswharan [MS] #: 13028 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 17:11:34 Sb: OLICOM Drivers Fm: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 To: Hans Kamutzki 100015,3007 Sorry, there is no NDIS 3.0 driver available for the Olicom TR card. #: 13208 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 01:48:47 Sb: #13028-OLICOM Drivers Fm: Hans Kamutzki 100015,3007 To: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 (X) Alan, some folks at IBM told me that they have NDIS Drivers for the TR Board. I haven't seen them yet, but if I manage to get them, I'll let you know. BTW: How could I get the NDSI specifications (probably I end up writing the driver myself) ? thanks for your effort, best regards, hka #: 13228 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 04:41:36 Sb: New HW List Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 To: Steve FAit 75300,3143 (X) Steve, Speaking on behalf of a zillion ATI video card users, I see no mention of 8514 support in the new list, was this a mistake, or is 8514 support a given for the Beta release? best...Tony #: 13030 S10/Device Drivers 20-Oct-92 17:11:45 Sb: NE2000 Network cards Fm: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 To: HowieFomby 76645,754 The NE2000 driver has been tested for the October release. #: 13299 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 14:54:11 Sb: #13030-NE2000 Network cards Fm: HowieFomby 76645,754 To: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 (X) Great news, Alan! (Both about the NE2000, and about the 'October'.) - Howard Fomby [Prolifix] #: 13212 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 02:41:35 Sb: NT Drivers Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546 To: Trantor Systems Ltd. I installed the nt-tsl drivers on the October release as described in the winnt.doc file. My board is the t128 from NEC. As far as I can tell, there are no jumpers (switches) on the board for changing the IRQ level. Also, I added the registry entries as described and put a second key within the t128 entry called device. The documentation was vague about the structure of the keys, but I looked at the other SCSI adaptors and found this to make sense. Well, the point of all this is that I cannot boot NT anymore. I receive a kernel exception 1e. One more thing, I checked the jumpers and I am using all of the defaults. Can you help me figure out what is wrong? Marc Singer -- Straylight Software There are 2 Replies. #: 13224 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 04:06:09 Sb: #13212-NT Drivers Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 Marc, <> There is an 8 or 10 pin jumper block on the T128. The lower row of pins are the ones you will need to jumper. You will need your own jumper cap as the T128 does not have a spare and as you noticed no documentaion in the manual on how to set them. However capping pins 1&2 will set IRQ5. Pins 2&3 will set IRQ7. Art #: 13295 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 14:11:26 Sb: #13224-NT Drivers Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) Art, Is the real beta out? -a. There is 1 Reply. #: 13336 S10/Device Drivers 23-Oct-92 03:15:45 Sb: #13295-NT Drivers Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X) Alex, <> It appears so, but I haven't received a copy yet. Art :( #: 13238 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 06:47:14 Sb: #13212-NT Drivers Fm: Don Apperson 72700,1042 To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 We are also trying to get the trantor device driver to work. We have not been able to find any instructions on the use of regedit in the doc files on the cdrom. Could you please explain, briefly the procedure for adding the t128.sys driver #: 13266 S10/Device Drivers 22-Oct-92 10:53:35 Sb: #13238-NT Drivers Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Don Apperson 72700,1042 (X) Don, <> That's because regedit is undocumented. What you will need to do is first logon as the system administrator (UID = ADMINISTRATOR, UPW = blank) and then run regedit. You will need to select the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE->SYSTEM->ControlSet001 subkey. Once there move to the services subkey and do an ADD KEY (menu item) the key value is T128. Then do an ADD VALUE (menu selection) for each item in T128 (or whichever driver). The select T128 and do an ADD KEY for the device line and then ADD VALUE the sub items. Also the ini file has one missing item. the SCSC miniport selection should be a REG_SZ (regular null terminated string). I'm doing this from memory so I hope I got it all right. One other item. The jumper setting must be enabled before you boot NT. The T128 requires that IRQ5 be set first, then you can change the IRQ with regedit and then the board itself and reboot. If no IRQ is set you will get an unhandled kernel exception. If this happens to you rename the *.sys driver to *.hld (just the one driver please) and NT will then boot as it did before you instyalled the driver. There is a 8 or 10 pin jumper block on the T128. The lower pins need to be used to set the IRQ. Pins 1 & 2 select IRQ5, pins 2 & 3 select IRQ7. Art There is 1 Reply. #: 13344 S10/Device Drivers 23-Oct-92 05:43:50 Sb: #13266-NT Drivers Fm: Michael Williams 75016,1777 To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X) I used regini.exe ("regini t348.ini" from commandline) to install my Trantor MiniSCSI-Plus adapter (rather than use regedit). It works great, but if a line is missing - should I add it by hand using regedit.exe? There is 1 Reply. #: 13352 S10/Device Drivers 23-Oct-92 06:03:30 Sb: #13344-NT Drivers Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 To: Michael Williams 75016,1777 Michael, <> I didn't even think about regini (mostly because I didn't know it was there. ) But if the entry in the ini file is wrong, then so might the entries in the registry be wrong. I'd look at it with regedit. If it is wrong you can correct it manually. You could also edit the ini file and try again. It's just that the ini file is missing a feild, maybe the program will supply the default, maybe not. Best check it to be sure. Art #: 12617 S11/Network services 16-Oct-92 16:29:04 Sb: #11940-starting workstation Fm: Spencer Frink 71461,1001 To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X) Azfar, thanks for the reply. I don't believe I have any interrupt conflicts. MSD.EXE under DOS doesn't show any. I am running on an HP Vectra 486/33T with 20MB, the Ultra VGA vidio in VGA mode, the Adaptec 1542 SCSI controller with both the Hard disc and Toshiba 3301-B CD ROM on it. I have a 3COM503 ethernet board on interrupt level 5. I installed using the graphical install, but had to make repairs due to data corruption apparently caused by the CD ROM and harddisc sharring the same SCSI bus. About 1 in 20 files was damaged. There do not seem to be any other errors in the eventlog related to the failure to start the workstation service. There are a large number of errors logged by STREAMS, but these seemed to be corrolated with SNMP requests from an HP OpenView station polling my WinNT node. Thanks, Spencer Frink #: 12653 S11/Network services 17-Oct-92 02:45:16 Sb: NT panic - no reply Fm: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721 To: Azfar Moazzam [MS] 71075,641 (X) Dear Azfar, I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt: invoce telnet through shell -> fine hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly, shell seems to behave properly invoce telnet again -> *** Fatal System Error 0x0...0A *** *** IRQL expected less or equal Ethernetcard is SMC8013EPC at I10 /IO280 / MEM CC000 ping + telnet + rpc work. By the way: From UNIX I'm used to some documentation like Where do I find this for Windows NT ? It's somewhat hard just to scan to all locations within NT FS to search for possible suggestions on how to set up different system files f.i. where do I find doc on tcpip.ini etc. Regards, Hans-Peter There is 1 Reply. #: 12761 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:29:35 Sb: #12653-NT panic - no reply Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721 >Dear Azfar, > >I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt: > >invoce telnet through shell -> fine >hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly, shell seems to behave properly > >invoce telnet again -> >*** Fatal System Error 0x0...0A *** >*** IRQL expected less or equal > >Ethernetcard is SMC8013EPC at I10 /IO280 / MEM CC000 >ping + telnet + rpc work. > >By the way: From UNIX I'm used to some documentation like > > >Where do I find this for Windows NT ? > >It's somewhat hard just to scan to all locations within NT FS to >search for possible suggestions on how to set up different system files > >f.i. where do I find doc on tcpip.ini etc. > >Regards, Hans-Peter > Hello Hans-Peter, We have seen somewhat similar problems with the July Preliminary Release of Windows NT and the telnet service. The Telnet service is being improved for the next update of the Windows NT. As far as the documentation is concerned, you will find the installation notes and release notes with your Windows NT distribution CD. More complete documentation will accompany the final product. Best Regards, Azfar Moazzam [MS] #: 12764 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:29:56 Sb: #12558-WinNT Client Connect Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: rory mcclure 76244,734 >I have WindowsNT server up and running. How can I access/connect to the server >from a client machine? What software if any do I need to install on the client >side? > Hello Rory, For a client to connect to a workstation running Windows NT, you need either a LAN Manager Workstation (or a similar SMB based variant NOS) or a machine running Windows for Workgroups. You can also use another machine running Windows NT as a client to the server. Best Regards, Azfar [MS] #: 12765 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:30:04 Sb: #12547-WINNT Server startup Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: rory mcclure 76244,734 >Does anyone know why I would get the error message "The service is not >responding to the control function" when trying to start the server from the >Control panel of Windows NT. What can I do to fix the problem? > Hello Rory, This error message indicates that your Windows NT system was not configured properly. How did you install Windows NT? Did you use the Graphical Install method or Dos2nt? Also please check for any interrupt conflicts, etc. on your machine. Also please provide detailed information on the configuration of the machine in question. This will help in further diagnosing the problem. Thanks. Azfar [MS] #: 12767 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:30:26 Sb: #11926-Win NT TCP/IP setup Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: George Halpert 72370,1151 >No we cannot seem to figure out how to start the LanManagerWorkstation and >LanManagerServer services. I think we might be missing some documentation or >we have overlooked something. Can you help? > >Regards, > >George Halpert > Hello George, Please check and confirm that there are no interrupt conflicts and the IOBASE, etc. settings for the card are set correctly. What error message and error code do you see when you type in "Net Start workstation" on the command prompt. If this command completes successfully then type "Net Start Server" and see what error you get. Most probably you have an interrupt or memory conflict issue. Once we can get the workstation and server started, then we can go ahead and install the tcpip protocol stack and get it to work. Best Regards, Azfar Moazzam [MS] #: 12814 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 10:18:31 Sb: #11712-network setup Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066 >Any ideas? (Why does ioctl(248 use 127.0.0.1???) I am not familiar with >Gateway, TCP Domain name from UNIX-are these values relevant? I will need more information to answer your first question. All I can say at this point is that it is using the loop back driver. Gateway: Is an IP number in the local IP subnet which can take you to hosts on a different ip network. Example: MachineA: IP#=134.100.1.1 NetMask=255.255.255.0 MachineB: IP#=134.100.2.1 NetMask=255.255.255.0 GatewayA: IP#=134.100.1.2 NetMask=255.255.255.0 GatewayB: IP#=134.100.2.2 NetMask=255.255.255.0 MachineA and MachineB are in two different IP networks (134.100.1 & 134..100.2) GatewayA and GatewayB should ideally be ONE router box with two different interfaces, one interface on network A and the other on network B. If machineA were an NT machine, then you would use GatewayA as the gateway address for that machine. TCP Domain name: This is used by the Domain Name Service. If you have a DNS server in your IP network. It usually has a Domain Name associated with it. This comes up in the TCP configuration because in Lan Manager there is another domain concept which is different from this domain. Example: nt.microsoft.com what I use. Please send me more information on your first question if you need a much more complete answer. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12842 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 13:04:36 Sb: #12229-NT & wfw Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: John Tarbox 71201,2467 (X) > I think you missed the point. NetDDE is at a differnt level from SMBs. John, you are absolutely right. I was thinking of something else. Klaus to answer your question properly.. NetDDE is not in the current builds of Windows NT. It may be another 2 months before it will be in the builds. You could also look at message # 15155 in the section 12 API-RPC/WinNet of the MSWIN32 forum. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12815 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 10:18:41 Sb: #12140-TCPIP networking Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066 Bob: >I am trying to get assistance on setting up NT to network on TCPIP My first >message (#11445) was answered by P. Krishan (#11641). I reviewed his >comments, but did not get a solution. I followed with message #11712 with >more info on my problem. I have posted a response for 11712. Please review it and if you need more info, just attach a message. I will follow that thread. >Will someone respond? Is there more documentation on how NT networks work >with TCPIP? This may be a very simple configuration problem... thanks I have sent an email within MS to find out the response to the above question. I will send you a response as soon as I get one. Thanks for your patience, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12870 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 16:09:40 Sb: #12140-TCPIP networking Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066 Bob: >Will someone respond? Is there more documentation on how NT networks work >with TCPIP? This may be a very simple configuration problem... thanks There will be tcpip documentation inside the beta kit. Specifically in the release notes book (the cover will say "Includes TCP/IP"). There is around 60+ pp of tcpip background doc, command reference for the utilites, and installation instructions. This might not be part of the final product documentation, it will go into the "resource kit". As far as your current problem is concerned, lets follow the other thread #: 12798 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 07:45:34 Sb: WinNT using NFS server? Fm: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150 To: microsoft Windows NT with an NFS server... I want to know if it will be possible to connect a PC having Windows NT to an NFS server and using all the NFS capabilities (disk sharing, peripherals sharing, NIS, Mail, etc...) If not possible, will it be possible to use a product like PC-NFS from SUN over Windows NT. I would appreciate to have any information available on this topic because we have to choose a product as soon as possible for networking our PC's and we also want to use Windows NT when available. Alain Lapierre 1-418-666-7691 There is 1 Reply. #: 12816 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 10:18:53 Sb: #12798-WinNT using NFS server? Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150 >Windows NT with an NFS server... I want to know if it will be possible to >connect a PC having Windows NT to an NFS server and using all the NFS >capabilities (disk sharing, There are third party vendor's who are working on an NFS implementation for Windows NT. >peripherals sharing, NIS, Mail, etc...) I have not heard of any NIS support within Windows NT. But what we provide is Domain Name Service, which a lot of Unix machines on the internet use DNS. We do not provide a DNS server, but a DNS client. MSMAIL will be bundled as part of the product. >If not possible, will it be possible to use a product like PC-NFS from SUN >over Windows NT. Sun should answer this question. >I would appreciate to have any information available on this topic because >we >have to choose a product as soon as possible for networking our PC's and we >also want to use Windows NT when available. TCPIP is very strategic for MS. We are providing UNIX connectivity over tcpip. There are also third party vendors who are working on X Server implementations. I would strongly recommend you to read the POSIX.FAQ which was posted in the WINNT Forum->OS/2, POSIX Apps section. It answers most of the UNIX style questions for Windows NT. > Alain Lapierre 1-418-666-7691 Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12888 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 18:15:56 Sb: #12798-WinNT using NFS server? Fm: Todd Needham [Microsoft] 73650,240 To: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150 (X) Alain, Microsoft is not planning on including NFS support in Windows NT first release. We _are_ working with a number of third parties on NFS client and server support for Windows NT though. Unfortunately, we cannot release those names as we are bound by non-disclosure agreements (obviously, no one wants us pre-announcing their products here). As soon as companies go public with their product announcements, the information will be made available here. In the meantime, you can always contact your favorite PC-NFS or TCP-NFS or whatever vendor (you mentioned SUN) and ask them what they're doing. They may be willing to disclose their plans one-on-one. Todd Needham Developer Relations Group #: 12925 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 00:06:11 Sb: Networking Fm: - Visitor 71461,543 To: toddn@microsoft.com To:Microsoft Corp. Dear Sirs, We are unable to configure our system as workstation with old driver for WD8003 network card. Sytem configuration: CPU:I386 with 16MB RAM and 300MB Hard Disk. WD8003 config: Interrupt No = 2 I/O address = 0x300 Memory address = 0xD000 WindowsNT was installed using graphical method, using CDROM distributed in july92. We are unable to download new driver wdlan.zip from WINNT forum in compuserve. Kindly let us know, if it is possible to use old driver for WD80003E network card and what are it's limitations? Also please let us know what are the modifications to be made in registry. Thanks NISHA DATE RAMCO Industies Ltd. INDIA #: 12844 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 13:04:49 Sb: #12485-TCP Streams ? Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 (X) >There has been alot of talk about how Windows NT will support Berkley sockets. >Will there be any official support for a TCP/IP streams layer? I could interpret your abouve question in two ways: Q1. Can streams be accessed for the purpose of developing a new streams based protocol ? Q2. Can tcpip be accessed via streams ioctls ? The answer to both questions is Yes. The streams environment is one of the topics which will be discussed at the upcoming DDK conference in southern California. >Or will this have to added on by a third party software package ? I noticed >there was a streams layer in the TCP protocol stack, can I access this ? You will be able to access the tcpip stack via streams ioctls using the winstrm.dll. The tcpip stack supports TPI (Transport Provider Interface). >Carlen Goodluck, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12880 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 17:23:04 Sb: #12844-TCP Streams ? Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X) I think this was the answer that I was looking for. Should I buy the DDK if I am intending to write TCP streams based applications ? I would think that the SDK should cover this topic. Carlen There is 1 Reply. #: 12945 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 07:25:24 Sb: #12880-TCP Streams ? Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 >I think this was the answer that I was looking for. Should I buy the DDK >if I Glad to be of help. >am intending to write TCP streams based applications ? I would think that >the >SDK should cover this topic. You should get the DDK if you want to write an NDIS transport stack. >Carlen Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12966 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 09:21:31 Sb: #12474-NetBIOS and NT Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Sven Schaetzl 100010,2346 >Hello! >How can I activate the NETBIOS emulation in Win/NT??? (I've seen the entry >in >the registry, but what should I do to install it ?) If you are asking how is NETBIOS implemented ? It is implemented as a mapping layer on top of transport stacks. NBFP which is the Netbios Frames Protocol implementes a mapping layer on top of it. TCPIP also does a similar thing. Infact nbt.sys is the netbios mapping layer for tcpip. This was not shipped with the July release of NT, but the future releases will have it. The mapping layer provides a consistent view of the transpor stacks for netbios applications. >How is the emulation implemented? Is it possible to open two >commandline-tasks >and send a message from one to an other or is only one netbios-task at a >time >possible... (Would be nice for netbios-testing without a network) This is a good question. But if you can clarify exactly what you propose to do, I can try to test it out here and let you know. >Greetings, Sven. Goodluck, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12975 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 09:45:44 Sb: #12207-NT telnet crash Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721 >Dear Azfar, >I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt: >invoce telnet through shell -> fine >hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly, shell seems to behave properly >invoce telnet again -> >*** Fatal System Error 0x0...0A *** >*** IRQL expected less or equal I logged in as administrator and tried: c:\users\default>telnet CTRL-C c:\users\default>dir c:\users\default>telnet I tried the above around 8 times and it did not give me a kernel panic. If you are able to consistently do the above with a specific configuration, I can try to get our repro-testers to test it out for you. I have a DEC201 card on a Dell 433DE. >Ethernetcard is SMC8013EPC at I10 /IO280 / MEM CC000 >ping + telnet + rpc work. >By the way: From UNIX I'm used to some documentation like > >Where do I find this for Windows NT ? The documentation that you have is the release kit. You will get specific admin guides and user guides when the product ships. But the interesting thing is that with the Beta you might get things which are part of a resource kit. BTW in the beta you will get a good amount of information on tcpip and its utilities installation etc. >It's somewhat hard just to scan to all locations within NT FS to >search for possible suggestions on how to set up different system files >f.i. where do I find doc on tcpip.ini etc. >Regards, Hans-Peter Goodluck, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13000 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 11:34:43 Sb: NT crash through telnet Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721 Sir, I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt: invoce telnet through shell -> fine hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly, shell seems to behave properly invoce telnet again -> *** Fatal System Error 0x0...0A *** Please see the response to your message number #12207 and follow that thread. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12698 S11/Network services 17-Oct-92 19:04:53 Sb: Network DDE & NT Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: all Can anybody tell me what the situation is with network DDE and Windows NT. I have been looking at using netDDE with windows for workgroups, and would like to run some of the client/server apps on NT. When will NT support be available to do this? #: 12841 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 13:04:30 Sb: #12698-Network DDE & NT Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) >Can anybody tell me what the situation is with network DDE and Windows NT. I >have been looking at using netDDE with windows for workgroups, and would like >to run some of the client/server apps on NT. NetDDE is not in the current builds of Windows NT. >When will NT support be available to do this? It may be another two months before it will be in the builds. You can also look at message #15007 in Section 12 API-RPC/WinNet of the MSWIN32 forum. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12885 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 18:00:35 Sb: #12841-Network DDE & NT Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267 To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X) Thanks for the feedback. Does this mean that NetDDE will be in the final build? Or will it be an extra facility available with LanMan for NT? Thanks in advance Graham #: 13018 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 14:56:06 Sb: #12885-Network DDE & NT Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) >Does this mean that NetDDE will be in the final build? Or will it be an >extra Yes it should be in the final build. #: 12843 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 13:04:43 Sb: #12698-Network DDE & NT Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X) The message number in my previous message should be.. Message# 15155 in Section 12 API-RPC/WinNet section of the MSWIN32 system. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13055 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 21:26:11 Sb: FTP and Passwords Fm: Barry M. Tannenbaum 71212,3133 To: all I'm in the process of porting an application to NT. Our source library is on a VMS node on our network. I have created a .BAT file to copy the sources over to our NT system using FTP. Unfortunately, FTP insists on having me type in the password from the console. On our Unix systems you can specify password information in a .netrc file in your login directory. VMS lets me specify proxy information. Is there any equivalent in the NT implementation of FTP? Thanks for the help. - Barry P.S. I'm new to Compuserve, so please go easy if this is the wrong forum to post this in. #: 12837 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 12:05:15 Sb: RPC Fm: Jacob Avital 71172,2722 To: sysop (X) We are porting a distributed realtime system to WinNT and plan to use the built-in RPC (current version 1.0a) as the main communucation tool. 1. Apparently there is a mismatch between the on-line documentation and the implementation of RpcMgmtIsServerListening() function. When the server does not listen, the function returns RPC_S_SERVER_NOT_LISTENING (code 1738( rather then RPC_S_NOT_LISTENING (code 1715). 2. I wrote a prototype with two processes and bi-directional RPC connection (the reversed connection is to avoid the use of the callback mechanism). Let A, B denote the to processes and A.foo and B.bar two remote function exported by A and B respectively. I tried recursive call sequence in which A.foo calls B.bar which calls A.foo ... The sequence seems to hang up after a single call in each direction. Thanks Koby #: 12982 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 10:01:15 Sb: #12837-RPC Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 To: Jacob Avital 71172,2722 (X) Hi Koby - as Pete mentioned in his reply to the identical message in MSWIN32/6/15374, please post questions on RPC development in MSWIN32 section 12. I'll begin looking into this for you, if you could just please repost it in MSWIN32/12 so there will be a thread there for this, that would be great thanks, Bruce There is 1 Reply. #: 13107 S11/Network services 21-Oct-92 08:49:51 Sb: #12982-RPC Fm: Jacob Avital 71172,2722 To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 Hi Bruce Thanks for your direction I'll post RPC messages to MSWIN32 secstion 12 Koby #: 13137 S11/Network services 21-Oct-92 12:03:44 Sb: NT & win workgroup Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 To: Ken Granderson 76307,3571 Ken, Are both machines in the same Workgroup? If so change one of them and see if the problem still persists. Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS] #: 13001 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 11:34:53 Sb: RCP problem Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Scott Wheeler 100022,2005 Scott: Our repro-testing labs need some more information on this problem. Can you fill in the bug report form and send it to us ? In particular we need also information about other applications you are running at the time. The feedback I got from the repro folks { It sounds a bit like a 'random' overwrite or that fileman is not reading the files correctly. Are you able to pen the files or are the files corrupted in any way if you use them. } We really appreciate your working with us on this Scott. Thanks, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 13155 S11/Network services 21-Oct-92 14:52:33 Sb: RCP problem Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 To: Scott Wheeler 100022,2005 Scott, Just to clarify, you can fill out the bugrep.txt (bug report) and submit it on the Library 3 in the WINNT forum. We are ready to proceed with the repro-testers but we are lacking the bug report. Thanks again, -Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS] #: 12614 S11/Network services 16-Oct-92 16:02:12 Sb: WFW & NT Fm: Howard Alpert 71561,3315 To: sysop (X) We have a pre-release of Windows NT and we also have a beta copy of WFW. Is it possible to get the Workgroup applications to work with NT? or do we have to wait for LAN Manager for NT? There is 1 Reply. #: 12763 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:29:49 Sb: #12614-WFW & NT Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: Howard Alpert 71561,3315 >We have a pre-release of Windows NT and we also have a beta copy of WFW. Is it >possible to get the Workgroup applications to work with NT? or do we have to >wait for LAN Manager for NT? > Hello Howard, Windows NT and Windows for Workgroups can communicate with each other as long as they are using the same protocol stack. You can use NetBEUI on both machines and then you will be able to share resources between the two workstations. LAN Manager for Windows NT provides high-end enterprise wide network and domain management capabilities. To simply communicate between Windows NT and Windows for Workgroups, you do not need LAN Manager for Windows NT. Best Regards. Azfar Moazzam [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12810 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 10:08:58 Sb: #12763-WFW & NT Fm: Stephen Mattin 71054,611 To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X) My company, Focus Software, is interested in trying out WFW with the current NT version, which we have. We do not have the Beta WFW, however. At NetWorld Dallas, the people demoing WFW suggested I ask on CompuServe to see if it is possible to get a copy before it hits the streets. WFW seems to be in the "no-mans land" between Beta and commercial release and I am interested in getting started on interoperability testing for our commercial clients as soon as possible. If anyone at MS could suggest an appropriate contact to obtain WFW quickly, please send Internet mail to sam@focus.com. Thanks, SAM #: 13157 S11/Network services 21-Oct-92 14:56:09 Sb: WFW & NT Fm: rory mcclure 76244,734 To: all I have WFW running on two workstations and NT running on a server. My pr problem is that I cannot access the server from the workstations. I am able to access the workstations from each other and set up shared directories. The server does appear in the "Connect Network Drive" dialog, but when I click on it in order to see Shared Directories, I get a STOP message, "Access has been denied.". Is there something obvious that I'm missing in setting up the server? #: 12766 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:30:16 Sb: #12061-NT & WINWRK Network Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: Ronald E Johnson 72570,2150 >Thany you for your response to my questions on the CONTROL >PANEL-SERVER-SERVICES functions. I was able to get XACTSRV to start at >start-up. > RE being able to see the WINWRK machine from the NT machine. I had both >machines with the same WORKGROUP name and was not able to see the WINWRK >machine from the NT machine. (Was able to share drives etc. just not able to >see them from the menus-list boxes that set up such things.) It isn't clear >to me what DOMAIN means in the WINWRK context. > I changed the WINWRK - WORKGROUP name to the same name as the DOMAIN name of >the NT machine. If NT is started prior to WINWRK, WINWRK hangs during >startup with the full screen Windows 3.1 logo displayed. If WINWRK is started >prior to NT, NT reports that the server cannot be started even though WINWRK >can share the NT machine drives. However, the NT machine cannot share the >WINWRK machine drives. Intend to study the WINWRK documentation more fully!? >Would appreciate any insights you might offer. > Ron Johnson > Hello Ron, In order to be able to see the the machines running Windows For Workgroups from the workstation running Windows NT, the workgroup name on both machines should be the same. From your message it appears that you have named the workgroup name on Windows for Workgroups to be the same as the DOMAIN on Windows NT. Instead make the workgroup name on Windows NT be the same as the workgroup name on Windows for Workgroups. The scenario that you described with Windows NT starting first or Windows for workgroups starting first and then either a hang or LanManagerServer not starting is quite intriguing. When Windows for Workgroups is started first, do you see the server service started when you type in "Net Start"? What error message and error code do you get when you try to start the server service? Is the workstation service running? Also, what errors (if any) are you getting in the eventlog? Azfar [MS] #: 13172 S11/Network services 21-Oct-92 18:29:04 Sb: #12766-NT & WINWRK Network Fm: Eric Swenson [Borland] 76376,2617 To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X) Azfar, You say that the workgroup name of the Windows/NT machine must be the same as the workgroup name of the Windows for Workgroups machine. This seems strange to me, since a machine in workgroup XXX cn see machines in workgroup YYY under Windows for Workgroups. In other words, it is not necessary for the machines to be in the same workgroup to be seen under Windows for Workgroups. In fact, my Windows/NT machine (running Build 340) *does* use the same workgroup as my three Windows for Workgroup machines, but it can see machines in all workgroups (not just the workgroup that the NT machine is in). Did you by any chance mean to say that the Windows/NT workgroup must match *one* of the Windows for Workgroup workgroups? Even this seems strange. -- Eric #: 13307 S11/Network services 22-Oct-92 15:44:57 Sb: Novell and NT Fm: Kevin Kieller 73047,1110 To: ALL Can anyone provide any information regarding connecting a Windows NT workstation to a Novell 3.11 network via IPX? Has Microsoft or Novell developed a alpha or beta redirector? Is it available anywhere? #: 13087 S11/Network services 21-Oct-92 05:51:54 Sb: Network Server & 3C507TP Fm: Ron Anderson 72241,113 To: Sysop (X) Anyone, I'm trying to get NT going as a server on a small 10Base-T test network. Hardware includes Cabletron hub and 3Com 3C507TP NICs. NT boots ok and the bindings appear to be ok, but neither the workstation or the server service will start. Any ideas? Thanks, Ron #: 13313 S11/Network services 22-Oct-92 17:34:32 Sb: #13087-Network Server & 3C507TP Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: Ron Anderson 72241,113 Hi Ron, Please start the event viewer and double click on the oldest event. scroll through until you find an error releated to the workstation and let me know what the error is. Also, you can chose File->SaveAs and save the event log to a text file #: 12644 S11/Network services 16-Oct-92 21:22:33 Sb: Ne2000 Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: sysop (X) I assume that sombody has turned in a reqest for a driver for a NE2000 network card. If they havent could you let me know? so I can turn in a HDreport thanks dan There are 2 Replies. #: 12707 S11/Network services 18-Oct-92 04:06:49 Sb: #12644-Ne2000 Fm: Neil Robinson 100016,2775 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X) Send one anyway. As far as I can tell, it is sort of like voting. The more noise they hear about support for a give device the more likely they are to write a driver for it... Ciao, Neil There is 1 Reply. #: 12740 S11/Network services 18-Oct-92 17:51:08 Sb: #12707-Ne2000 Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Neil Robinson 100016,2775 Send one anyway. As far as I can tell, it is sort of like voting. The more noise they hear about support for a give device the more likely they are to write a driver for it... Ok I see your point! and I will Vote as well! I just wish the Gov would have BETA programs to test there ideas out! :) Dan #: 12879 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 17:17:28 Sb: #12740-Ne2000 Fm: Neil Robinson 100016,2775 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 > I just wish the Gov would have BETA programs to test > there ideas out! Not a bad idea, but who are they going to get to handle the bug reports ;-) Ciao, Neil #: 12762 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 03:29:41 Sb: #12644-Ne2000 Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X) >I assume that sombody has turned in a reqest for a driver for a NE2000 network >card. >If they havent could you let me know? >so I can turn in a HDreport >thanks >dan Hello Dan, Please go ahead and send in the hardware request form (HWFEED.TXT). The winnthw@microsoft.com alias is a one way alias. Although a few people may have already sent in the request, it wouldn't hurt to send it in again. This will also indicate that there a lot of people interested in the support for this network interface card. Thanks. Azfar [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12794 S11/Network services 19-Oct-92 07:20:16 Sb: #12762-Ne2000 Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X) will do ! I always feel empty when sending in the report on HW. Off it goes and Im never sure if I filled out the form right - or - if it realy go to where it was to go. :) Dan #: 12955 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 08:05:05 Sb: #12644-Ne2000 Fm: Don Perry 76676,1127 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 I could use NE2000 support in a bad way myself. If it doesn't make it to NT I'll have to buy a bunch of new network cards. What is the best way to "vote"? Don #: 13322 S11/Network services 22-Oct-92 21:08:40 Sb: #12955-Ne2000 Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Don Perry 76676,1127 The only way to Vote that I Know to VOTE is to send in a hard ware text report to an internet address #: 12961 S11/Network services 20-Oct-92 08:13:26 Sb: #12644-Ne2000 Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 What!? No support for NE 2000!? Aiieeee! Vote early, vote often! M'softies viewing, please count my vote! -Daniel #: 13312 S11/Network services 22-Oct-92 17:34:27 Sb: #12961-Ne2000 Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 To: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 Yes, your vote was counted and the NE2000 will be included in the October release! Gregg Acheson [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 13323 S11/Network services 22-Oct-92 21:09:22 Sb: #13312-Ne2000 Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 To: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 :) ! #: 12632 S12/Printing 16-Oct-92 18:16:24 Sb: #12319-Printing CD Documention Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X) Hello Devlin, I moved the files to my Macintosh (remembering of course to change the EOLs) and used both Aldus's SendPS and Word to get PS to the printers. Neither one worked, and I tried two different LaserWriters, on older and one new. I can also connect the LW to a serial port on the PC but I haven't had it that way since 1987. Bob Anyway, why should it have anything to do with printing problems in NT? #: 12868 S12/Printing 19-Oct-92 16:06:51 Sb: #12539-Printing problem.. Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 To: Hien Nguyen 71204,254 Hien, Which IRQ is your SoundBlaster card using? By defualt, the SB uses IRQ 7. If that's your current settings you are sharing the interrupt with LPT1 and that's not allowed. Change the IRQ settings of the SB to a free IRQ, and try printing. Regards, Sam Karroum [MS] #: 13134 S12/Printing 21-Oct-92 11:41:35 Sb: Canon LBP-8 prn. driver Fm: Thomas Nielsen 100065,2167 To: ALL When trying to print something from NT (July preliminary release) on my Canon LBP-8III laser, NT treats the Canon printer as a PostScript device resulting in outputting a raw PostScript file on the printer instead of the correct image. It seems like the printer driver has been configured using the PostScript engine rather than the raster driver. Is this corrected in the next release (october) or is there a way to work around the problem ? Regards Thomas #: 12773 S13/Security 19-Oct-92 03:58:08 Sb: C2 certif. in progress? Fm: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 To: sysop sysop (X) I've heard conflicting info from MS on the status of the C2 security evaluation -- I heard once that NT would be "C2-certifiable" but that due to the cost/effort/etc., MS would not actually go for the certification. Another time I heard that NT is definitely in the C2 certification process now. Can anyone from MS clarify this? Thanks! #: 12830 S13/Security 19-Oct-92 11:05:51 Sb: #12773-C2 certif. in progress? Fm: Tom Hazel [Microsoft] 72360,1176 To: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 (X) David, The Windows NT system is being designed so that it can be C2 Certified. When Windows NT is released, a customer can have his system C2 certified by the process that is in place to do that. Please understand that it is my understanding that you do not certify an operating system but you certify the individual installation of the operating system/hardware/enviroment. We are currently in process of having Windows NT evaluated at the C2 level so that individual installations can be certified at that level. Tom Hazel [MS] There is 1 Reply. #: 12958 S13/Security 20-Oct-92 08:11:54 Sb: #12830-C2 certif. in progress? Fm: Scott Alexander 76556,557 To: Tom Hazel [Microsoft] 72360,1176 (X) the process that is in place to do that. Please understand that it is my understanding that you do not certify an operating system but you certify the individual installation of the operating system/hardware/enviroment. #: 12840 S14/Documentation 19-Oct-92 12:52:35 Sb: PageMarq 20 Prob. Fm: David W Beekman 76366,3222 To: sysop (X) I'm trying to print the Win NT Documentation a Compaq PageMarq 20 and I get an error from the printer telling me that it needs the GEM Preamble to be downloaded first. Any suggestions? Do you know how I can get my hands on a GEM preamble. Thanks in advance, David Beekman